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Post by bigbone on Aug 5, 2018 10:13:32 GMT -6
What about a songwriter who is also a producer/engineer? You can do one or two of theses, but you will fail them all if you try to do all of theses at the same time. !!!!!
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Post by Guitar on Aug 5, 2018 11:09:53 GMT -6
What about a songwriter who is also a producer/engineer? You can do one or two of theses, but you will fail them all if you try to do all of theses at the same time. !!!!! I agree it's no simple task. I prefer to have a gang or a team involved in anything that ends up worth being anything. It's hard to fake that vibe if it's not there. Listening to one person alone in a room has a certain sound to it that's a little bit too cerebral maybe. Although I love a lot of that stuff, too. I have no problem mixing down my projects when the time comes. Take off the musician hat. That's where the fancy studio gear comes into play.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2018 11:44:05 GMT -6
If you are a songwriter you don't need a great AD. Especially because with convertors there "really is" a negligible difference between first in class and fifth. You need great instruments and gear that will peel back the layers and show you the "actual colors and tones you are working with". How many times have you played a simple familiar chord progression on a Steinway B and suddenly "heard" a melody or song that had never been there before, or strummed a vintage Martin and all of a sudden you are hearing colors and ideas that weren't there for you on your J45. The same thing applies to great microphones, they can present tone and texture in your voice that suddenly makes you not recognize who you are listening to and it allows you to stay in the moment and create through the inspiration of sound. Digital conversion contributes to none of that and that's okay, it has its place, but not in music creation. Truer words have never been spoken...That’s what I’m slowly realizing - but I’m having a hard time letting go (ego.) I have a bunch of cheap electric guitars and basses that struggle with intonation and consistency that I just need to sell and buy one pro grade electric and bass. It would probably shave hours off of production time for me. But - that would probably take me dropping from the Symphony to the 16A - which I’m leery of. Not that I don’t believe the consensus here, I’m just leery of possibly going backwards and then re-buying. I’ve done it a thousand times lol. It’s a difficult question for me, though...songwriting has unfortunately taken a back seat these days as well, there’s only decent money in it for a very few. I’m now making a living mixing and producing indie stuff...I’d RATHER be writing and making demos...but... Anyway, I could still do great work with something like the 16a and then use that money to buy some better creative tools. I went through this for years with acoustic guitars - then bought a D-28 Authentic and suddenly everything started sounding great. (Great enough for me) So - what yotonic said rings very true for me.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2018 11:46:03 GMT -6
Yeah - it’s tough to be a songwriter, engineer, producer, publisher, marketer, promoter, label, etc. I dread social media...and I’m bad at it.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 5, 2018 11:47:03 GMT -6
Can’t you get a 16a on demo and really check : that would be ideal !
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2018 11:47:56 GMT -6
Also - just to add - to play all this shit and not sound like the exact same guy all the time is so difficult. I soooo wish I could go in the studio and have the time to track with pro guys. But money and all.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2018 11:48:16 GMT -6
Can’t you get a 16a on demo and really check : that would be ideal ! I’m thinking about it.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 5, 2018 12:27:49 GMT -6
Then you’d know for certain.
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Post by wiz on Aug 5, 2018 15:25:25 GMT -6
What about a songwriter who is also a producer/engineer? You can do one or two of theses, but you will fail them all if you try to do all of theses at the same time. !!!!! I am this guy...8) its taken me well over 20 years to get good at it. Its hard. cheers Wiz
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Post by Guitar on Aug 5, 2018 15:53:04 GMT -6
You can do one or two of theses, but you will fail them all if you try to do all of theses at the same time. !!!!! I am this guy...8) its taken me well over 20 years to get good at it. Its hard. cheers Wiz Same here... hehe.
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Post by bigbone on Aug 5, 2018 16:24:38 GMT -6
Good for you guys . !!!!!
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 5, 2018 17:28:46 GMT -6
But maybe they are bad at math ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 6, 2018 8:30:53 GMT -6
Being a singer/songwriter/musician/engineer/producer/promoter is rough. Mainly because there's only so much time in a day, and if you need to make a living while doing those things, your projects will move at a glacial pace, as mine have.
But, it can be done well. I've heard some amazing tracks here, Johnkens, Cowboycoalminer's, Wiz, Ragan, Kcats, and the common denominator there is the desire to create great music, whether you can afford the time and money for a band and a studio or not.
If I get traction with my work, it will have all been worth it, but that remains to be seen.
To be continued...
I still hope to add a ProJect DAC to my system, but there are other priorities.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 6, 2018 9:06:05 GMT -6
If money’s tight: when isn’t it, I find even getting one track per song, like lead guitar, cut by someone else, can make a big difference , as they naturally bring a different perspective?
I also had a really good experience with Daniel, the for hire, keyboard guy in Europe and will definitely work with him again.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 6, 2018 9:19:40 GMT -6
Every time I switch a component in my monitoring I get total analytical/anal and it kind of drives me insane. Usually it takes me at least several days to adjust.
This little DAC has been a huge learning experience with MQA audio, DSD, filter options.
MQA over the Tidal streaming service is pretty bad-ass. Makes me consider spending the $20 a month. DSD vinyl rips are also pretty fun to listen to. Hi-Res audio is also fine/good. I've got Back In Black in 96 kHz and it's just nasty...totally rips.
Ultimately recorded audio is just not as exciting as the "real thing" (playing/hearing live.) I guess I enjoy making music a little more than listening back. In that sense, this DAC is good. Most DACs are fine. During the heat of creation it won't be an impediment.
I think maybe once I get back to tracking and normal life I'll be able to listen to it more casually/effortlessly. I just get really distracted by sound quality minutia. In another sense, though, it's fun to hear my favorite reference albums in new ways.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 6, 2018 12:02:38 GMT -6
OK, well I just dug in and re-mixed two of my new songs that had been at the rough mix state. Back to back listening with reference mixes showed pretty clearly that my rough mixes were pretty rough and hard to listen to.
I can verify that this DAC is really easy to work on. The transient response is so good that I could clearly hear minor differences in SSL bus compressor settings.
It also is unforgiving of harshness. I had to find and notch out a bunch of problem frequencies, as well as employ the FabFilter DS de-esser. In this vein as well, I had to reduce my Pro-L2 limiter settings back down to about -10 LUFS or so. You can really hear the nasties when you push the limiter too far. Which is good for me, because I've been known to do that when not paying attention.
I'm also able to make precise moves at a relatively low volume. And the fact that I listened to this DAC for 10 hours yesterday, 3 or so already today, I think says that it's not a fatiguing sound. I can't even imagine doing that on my rig from a few years ago. Yes, the Focal speakers are a big part of that too, but all the components matter some.
So perhaps not a groundbreaking improvement compared to my usual interfaces, but at least a nudge in the right direction. I certainly find it easier to work on than the Presonus Quantum that I'm using for ADC (recording inputs). I felt a little bit lost on the Presonus DAC. This one's a bit more familiar to me.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 6, 2018 12:19:11 GMT -6
OK, well I just dug in and re-mixed two of my new songs that had been at the rough mix state. Back to back listening with reference mixes showed pretty clearly that my rough mixes were pretty rough and hard to listen to. I can verify that this DAC is really easy to work on. The transient response is so good that I could clearly hear minor differences in SSL bus compressor settings. It also is unforgiving of harshness. I had to find and notch out a bunch of problem frequencies, as well as employ the FabFilter DS de-esser. In this vein as well, I had to reduce my Pro-L2 limiter settings back down to about -10 LUFS or so. You can really hear the nasties when you push the limiter too far. Which is good for me, because I've been known to do that when not paying attention. I'm also able to make precise moves at a relatively low volume. And the fact that I listened to this DAC for 10 hours yesterday, 3 or so already today, I think says that it's not a fatiguing sound. I can't even imagine doing that on my rig from a few years ago. Yes, the Focal speakers are a big part of that too, but all the components matter some. So perhaps not a groundbreaking improvement compared to my usual interfaces, but at least a nudge in the right direction. I certainly find it easier to work on than the Presonus Quantum that I'm using for ADC (recording inputs). I felt a little bit lost on the Presonus DAC. This one's a bit more familiar to me. Yeah, this is a very, very good DAC. Surprising for such a little box costing (relatively) little money.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 6, 2018 12:33:12 GMT -6
I was comparing this to the Motu 16a the other day. Had both hooked up to a switcher. I struggled to hear a significant difference. Maybe a tad more defined in the low end on the S2. The Motu 16a is really a great box. Wondering if I even need an external DAC. I have two more days to return the S2. Dang man...so you moved on from the Symphony? I put mine up to see if there were nibbles...nothing. Yeah, it's just too hard to ignore the price vs performance I'm getting out of the Motu. Is the Symphony a better set of converters? Yeah, probably a little. But I just picked up a used Motu 24Ao. Now, I've got 16 channels of AD and 40 channels of DA for 1600 hundred bucks, and I'll pocket around $2k selling the Symphony. I can't justify passing that up based on the comparisons I made. I just didn't hear it. I'll take the $2k and add more SumBus channels or something, which will likely give me more audible gains than subtle differences in conversion. I actually plan on using the 16a as my main I/O for tracking and outboard mixing, and tie sixteen channels of the 24Ao directly into 16 channels of the SumBus, and the remaining 8 channels of the 24Ao I will tie directly to my Hearback system. I will need a monitor controller with this setup, though. I'll probably just go back to the Drawmer MC2.1. I have now just gone in circles with my setup, re-buying gear I've previously sold. I think it's a sign that I have a problem.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 6, 2018 12:34:18 GMT -6
I'll probably end up holding on to the S2. I think I paid 340 for it, which is a bargain.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 7, 2018 9:58:42 GMT -6
I decided I need to return this Pro Ject. I already sent the email to Crutchfield. They have a 60 day return policy if you save the packaging and keep it in like new condition.
I'm going to switch back to the Focusrite Clarett as my working DAC. Probably the Clarett OctoPre. It's only $50 more than this DAC as a B-stock. That will give me a respectable 26x28 I/O at 48K project rates.
After thinking back on the past 3 days of listening it's just too mushy sounding. I need tight bass and firm highs. If I had to guess, I would say that it's underpowered. These DAC chips were designed for mobile phones.
The thing that really did it for me was listening to my Arousor plugin. I couldn't clearly hear what the compressor was doing and that bothers me.
I apologize for any hyperbole in this thread I just get really excited about interfaces and converters, it's my favorite type of studio gear. Other than microphones I guess.
It was a really good learning experience even if I did suddenly decide to change directions and retreat to my standard tried and true option.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 7, 2018 10:55:23 GMT -6
I decided I need to return this Pro Ject. I already sent the email to Crutchfield. They have a 60 day return policy if you save the packaging and keep it in like new condition. I'm going to switch back to the Focusrite Clarett as my working DAC. Probably the Clarett OctoPre. It's only $50 more than this DAC as a B-stock. That will give me a respectable 26x28 I/O at 48K project rates. After thinking back on the past 3 days of listening it's just too mushy sounding. I need tight bass and firm highs. If I had to guess, I would say that it's underpowered. These DAC chips were designed for mobile phones. The thing that really did it for me was listening to my Arousor plugin. I couldn't clearly hear what the compressor was doing and that bothers me. I apologize for any hyperbole in this thread I just get really excited about interfaces and converters, it's my favorite type of studio gear. Other than microphones I guess. It was a really good learning experience even if I did suddenly decide to change directions and retreat to my standard tried and true option. I didn't find that. I found the S2 to sound more well defined on the bottom than the Motu. Very subtle difference, though. But not what I would call mushy at all.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 7, 2018 12:27:50 GMT -6
I just made the call to stuff it back in the shipping box with return label. Got my Presonus Quantum plugged back in for the time being, and the vibe is back big time. I think it was the right decison -for me-.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Aug 7, 2018 15:41:45 GMT -6
I decided I need to return this Pro Ject. I already sent the email to Crutchfield. They have a 60 day return policy if you save the packaging and keep it in like new condition. I'm going to switch back to the Focusrite Clarett as my working DAC. Probably the Clarett OctoPre. It's only $50 more than this DAC as a B-stock. That will give me a respectable 26x28 I/O at 48K project rates. After thinking back on the past 3 days of listening it's just too mushy sounding. I need tight bass and firm highs. If I had to guess, I would say that it's underpowered. These DAC chips were designed for mobile phones. The thing that really did it for me was listening to my Arousor plugin. I couldn't clearly hear what the compressor was doing and that bothers me. I apologize for any hyperbole in this thread I just get really excited about interfaces and converters, it's my favorite type of studio gear. Other than microphones I guess. It was a really good learning experience even if I did suddenly decide to change directions and retreat to my standard tried and true option. What is your thoughts on the Clarett DAC compared to the others? Have you tried Motu?
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Post by Guitar on Aug 7, 2018 16:15:34 GMT -6
I decided I need to return this Pro Ject. I already sent the email to Crutchfield. They have a 60 day return policy if you save the packaging and keep it in like new condition. I'm going to switch back to the Focusrite Clarett as my working DAC. Probably the Clarett OctoPre. It's only $50 more than this DAC as a B-stock. That will give me a respectable 26x28 I/O at 48K project rates. After thinking back on the past 3 days of listening it's just too mushy sounding. I need tight bass and firm highs. If I had to guess, I would say that it's underpowered. These DAC chips were designed for mobile phones. The thing that really did it for me was listening to my Arousor plugin. I couldn't clearly hear what the compressor was doing and that bothers me. I apologize for any hyperbole in this thread I just get really excited about interfaces and converters, it's my favorite type of studio gear. Other than microphones I guess. It was a really good learning experience even if I did suddenly decide to change directions and retreat to my standard tried and true option. What is your thoughts on the Clarett DAC compared to the others? Have you tried Motu? I've never owned a MOTU. If I had done more research before my buy I would have considered Motu VS Quantum (Presonus). I should try some MOTUs. I went with Presonus because I already knew I did not want the Clarett to be my main interface. Quantum just has much better features and expandability. MOTU would have been on that tip as well if I had known about it/them. The Clarett is my highest ranked DAC right now out of half a dozen or more that I've been through and spent significant time on. It's a lot harder to settle on a DAC. ADC is fairly easy to accept at this level. I've been spending a lot of time with the Quantum (about a month now) and it's pretty good. Acceptable. Not "great" though, so I think I'm going to switch back to the Clarett. The Quantum is just a tiny bit dark or laid back, the Clarett is going to be just a little more detailed and 'clinical' so I'm pretty sure that's what I'm going to switch back to. Just to get a little more of that sense of precision. I spent 1.5 years on the Clarett and did a lot of work. My main interfaces changed a few times but I always was using a Clarett DAC. I've owned 3 Claretts and 2 Saffires, and 1 Scarlett so you can tell from that how I like them. And how much I rank Focusrite in general. The only reason I switched to Quantum and Pro Ject was just curiosity, and maybe a little boredom. As well as a growing dissatisfaction with UA Apollos (which do sound good, I just find the workflow annoying and limited.) Now that my curiosity has been satisfied, and I'm settled on Presonus as a core interface, I can do whatever I want. Which is probably buy a Clarett OctoPre for about $450 and go from there.
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Post by yotonic on Aug 16, 2018 0:32:08 GMT -6
I'm curious how you found the Apollo workflow annoying? I was thinking of picking one up now that they are on sale but I hate adding more steps or silly software mixers to my flow.
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