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Post by acegunn on Jul 9, 2018 16:16:14 GMT -6
Well, I can't find much talk about it outside of the couple guys on this thread. A quick search on the other site is a bunch of posts, mainly all from Jim. Jim's thread on the other site was locked, so that pretty much ended the discussion.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
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Post by ericn on Jul 9, 2018 17:25:57 GMT -6
Well, I can't find much talk about it outside of the couple guys on this thread. A quick search on the other site is a bunch of posts, mainly all from Jim. Jim's thread on the other site was locked, so that pretty much ended the discussion. Of course it was !
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 12, 2018 21:38:53 GMT -6
I hooked both my Symphony MKII and the S2 up to a switcher. I struggled to hear much of a difference. Got fatigued, but at the end, I started to notice a difference in the low end. The S2 seemed fuller in the low, low mids. Don’t know if that means more accurate or not. But it was one difference I picked out. Not sure if that’s a good thing or not. I did have to volume match by ear. If the S2 was 1 dB louder, it sounded better, and it was difficult to notice the volume difference.
I’ll share more thoughts later. Listening on Amphion One15’s/Parasound A21 amp.
Also, totally not meant as a derogatory review. I think it’s a good thing! Both stellar converters!
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 13, 2018 7:15:38 GMT -6
How are you guys clocking this? I don't see many options.
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Post by svart on Jul 13, 2018 7:32:25 GMT -6
I hooked both my Symphony MKII and the S2 up to a switcher. I struggled to hear much of a difference. Got fatigued, but at the end, I started to notice a difference in the low end. The S2 seemed fuller in the low, low mids. Don’t know if that means more accurate or not. But it was one difference I picked out. Not sure if that’s a good thing or not. I did have to volume match by ear. If the S2 was 1 dB louder, it sounded better, and it was difficult to notice the volume difference. I’ll share more thoughts later. Listening on Amphion One15’s/Parasound A21 amp. Also, totally not meant as a derogatory review. I think it’s a good thing! Both stellar converters! That's my impression on most converters. When all else is equal, you don't hear much of a difference overall, just tonality. The issue is that there is no standard in interconnection, etc, so some converters will drive loads differently or react differently to different systems. The outcome is that some folks hear more differences than others, but it's usually boiled down to overcoming those different loadings, connections, or otherwise physically working better in some setups than others. For instance a DAC that uses certain opamps that can drive 10 ohm loads will work better on a 600R transformer, than say something like a TL072 which will strain against 600R. Some opamps will ring a bit when driving capacitive loads, so the designer might isolate that loading with a few ohms in series, but that reduces available current to slew a load. You might choose a driver device instead of an opamp, but now you're probably going to be bandwidth limited, and/or drastically increasing your power budget. You could get an opamp that can do all this, but it's only SOIC and it's 6$ a piece, and it's not unity gain stable, or you can get a unity stable part but you need to use resistor values that are very high, increasing noise.. So these are just a few examples of maybe hundreds of design considerations, and most design choices are just tons of tradeoffs for what your end goal is.
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Post by svart on Jul 13, 2018 7:39:16 GMT -6
How are you guys clocking this? I don't see many options. SPDIF/AES already have their own clocking built into the datastream.
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 14, 2018 2:12:38 GMT -6
How are you guys clocking this? I don't see many options. I'll say too, the S2 is pretty sensitive to it's reference clock..... When I switch out my 16a's internal and the BLA MKIII the difference is pretty substantial. I suspect with some time you'll start hearing more and more of what I'd call "trueness" from the S2. Getting into the MQA stuff, pulling up some tunes you love, if they have them in MQA, you'll hear it different I bet, just make sure the S2 is getting the feed from the comp and the host is set to push the data for the S2 to decode..... If not your comp will decode it and it's not nearly as good. Also when it comes to the filters, I really like the Brickwall setting or using their optimal setting.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 16, 2018 8:00:57 GMT -6
Any reason why I shouldn't use the S2 as my main volume control? Thinking about running the S2 off the 16a as the main DAC, and using the S2 as a monitor controller of sorts. Volume control and headphone. I've got a speaker selector (Mammoth Cave Audio 3-to-3) I'd run the S2 into if I want to switch to my Mixcube or anything. Just seeing if I can avoid having to splash for a monitor controller seeing how the 16a doesn't have volume control or headphone. Any loss of resolution or anything with the volume knob?
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Post by yotonic on Jul 16, 2018 8:22:02 GMT -6
Sounds like a nice DA to go with a Burl AD... But seriously what happens to these convertor companies like Apogee? Is this their Napster moment?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 16, 2018 9:18:49 GMT -6
Sounds like a nice DA to go with a Burl AD... But seriously what happens to these convertor companies like Apogee? Is this their Napster moment? Indie said : "I hooked both my Symphony MKII and the S2 up to a switcher. I struggled to hear much of a difference. " Read more: realgearonline.com/thread/8726/ject-digital-9038-chip-impressions?page=7#ixzz5LQm2vbNEI think these add ons and their value add kind of depends where you are with your gear ? This is what I meant by I like the symph mkii as a stand alone: i have really good AD and DA, headphone out and a volume control literary at arm's length. The local hi end audio store is supposed to get the S2 soon and given the comments above, I am curious to try it but its going to be like $6-700 cdn all in. I would need to hear a significant difference to make it worth my while.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 16, 2018 9:40:58 GMT -6
Sounds like a nice DA to go with a Burl AD... But seriously what happens to these convertor companies like Apogee? Is this their Napster moment? Indie said : "I hooked both my Symphony MKII and the S2 up to a switcher. I struggled to hear much of a difference. " Read more: realgearonline.com/thread/8726/ject-digital-9038-chip-impressions?page=7#ixzz5LQm2vbNEI think these add ons and their value add kind of depends where you are with your gear ? This is what I meant by I like the symph mkii as a stand alone: i have really good AD and DA, headphone out and a volume control literary at arm's length. The local hi end audio store is supposed to get the S2 soon and given the comments above, I am curious to try it but its going to be like $6-700 cdn all in. I would need to hear a significant difference to make it worth my while. Well, yeah, the S2 is really good DA, volume knob and headphone out at arms reach. Not sure of your point, other than being an all-in-one box. How much are you willing to pay for that is the question. Everyone has their own answer. I’m struggling to justify the premium.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 16, 2018 9:50:51 GMT -6
I am sure it is. I just meant when people debate the value of the symph mkii, its stand alone, in the sense that you get a complete very good interface and don't ( arguably) need add ons, others may disagree After moving in and out of various gear choices, I am just more aware of the law of continued gear purchase diminishing returns , meaning, my perspective is get one good interface that works for you and focus on using it
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 16, 2018 10:03:33 GMT -6
...get one good interface that works for you and focus on using it Yeah, that was my thinking when I picked up the Symphony. And I'd be officially going in circles if I make the move back to the 16a. But it's really hard to ignore the $3k I'd be pocketing by making the move. That's really the main factor for me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 16, 2018 10:58:48 GMT -6
I think that is fair. If the 16a gives you most of what you want and you get to free up some major dough for other things: why not ?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2018 19:37:17 GMT -6
I’m in the same place. I was looking at expanding I/O eventually and going cheap like a clarett or something...guess I could have added 8 more with something like the 828es...but it would be really nice to pocket $1000 AND add the 8 more channels I need. Here’s what is stopping me so far: 99% of the time you get what you pay for. How many times have I thought, “oh, I can barely tell a difference...” and then three months later I’m like, “there was a difference.” And not really knowing how good the AD is.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2018 19:38:52 GMT -6
It’s also figuring out what you need to really focus on...that’s been a years long process for me. If you’re a songwriter, all you really need is a freaking Apollo...but my wants and desires are bigger than that.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 4, 2018 16:20:54 GMT -6
Any reason why I shouldn't use the S2 as my main volume control? Thinking about running the S2 off the 16a as the main DAC, and using the S2 as a monitor controller of sorts. Volume control and headphone. I've got a speaker selector (Mammoth Cave Audio 3-to-3) I'd run the S2 into if I want to switch to my Mixcube or anything. Just seeing if I can avoid having to splash for a monitor controller seeing how the 16a doesn't have volume control or headphone. Any loss of resolution or anything with the volume knob? This is an interesting question to me. The question is "will the volume encoder hold up over time." I had an Emotiva DC-1, the volume encoder crapped out in under 5 years of regular use. I have had pretty bad luck with Emotiva quality on more than one product, however, I must add. A different experience, the encoder on my pro-sumer car stereo has been going strong for 13 years or so. I am now using a Drawmer MC2.1 monitor controller which has a serviceable volume pot assembly that can be replaced for about $20. So there is a backup plan there. I had to repair, and sell my DC-1 to buy the Pro Ject Pre Box S2 Digital... which I guess brings me to my next post!
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Post by Guitar on Aug 4, 2018 17:03:15 GMT -6
Basically my experience with the Pre Box S2 Digital is the same as Jerome's in the opening post.
The sound is analog-y. No "digititus" on this box. The sound is clear but it has also a visceral quality. Brightness or dullness has been a problem with some converters but this one seems to strike a good balance, where a lot of the strength seems to happen in the midrange.
The image is the most clear thing I've ever heard. Pinpoint precision. I actually had to calibrate my monitors more carefully because I was hearing faults in my setup. Separation is astounding.
Dynamics. I was hearing soft to loud dynamics that I've never heard before on any other rig. You could practically "see" the fader ride.
The Fun Factor. Music is engaging and stimulating. You just want to keep hearing it. In the old days my converters would push me away, fight me. Then they got "OK." They they became "pretty special with small niggles," and this one just feels like, "OK, we've got there." This is probably the most important point for me. If I'm going to be doing this 4+ hours every day I better damn well be treated to something nice. Live music has always been a thrill for me. Getting the studio rig to represent that fairly has been a lifelong pursuit for me. Every little bit counts and this particular bit counts a lot. Other than a subwoofer, which may not even be important, my monitoring rig finally feels sort of completed. The Presonus Quantum DAC was serviceable, but I found it a little bit soft and dull sounding over time, lacking impact and energy. It does take time to learn a DAC but the Pro Ject has immediately got me a bit hyped up, which I think is notable.
$100 dollars cheaper than the Emotiva it replaced, and 1/4 of the size and weight, with nearly all of the same features and connectivity. It looks like a toy, but it's really not.
I also like setting it at the "Test" mode of distortion reduced, and brickwall filter. Just sounds good in this mode.
So I guess for $400 I would recommend it to anyone in need of a good sounding main monitor path and/or headphone path. Unless you've already got a Symphony or whatever.
I have a small nightmare/fantasy of becoming a Mastering Engineer and having to audition $10,000 speakers and converters to see what comes out on top. Luckily my meager living situation will prevent that for now.
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Post by svart on Aug 4, 2018 17:16:46 GMT -6
Basically my experience with the Pre Box S2 Digital is the same as Jerome's in the opening post. The sound is analog-y. No "digititus" on this box. The sound is clear but it has also a visceral quality. Brightness or dullness has been a problem with some converters but this one seems to strike a good balance, where a lot of the strength seems to happen in the midrange. The image is the most clear thing I've ever heard. Pinpoint precision. I actually had to calibrate my monitors more carefully because I was hearing faults in my setup. Separation is astounding. Dynamics. I was hearing soft to loud dynamics that I've never heard before on any other rig. You could practically "see" the fader ride. The Fun Factor. Music is engaging and stimulating. You just want to keep hearing it. In the old days my converters would push me away, fight me. Then they got "OK." They they became "pretty special with small niggles," and this one just feels like, "OK, we've got there." This is probably the most important point for me. If I'm going to be doing this 4+ hours every day I better damn well be treated to something nice. Live music has always been a thrill for me. Getting the studio rig to represent that fairly has been a lifelong pursuit for me. Every little bit counts and this particular bit counts a lot. Other than a subwoofer, which may not even be important, my monitoring rig finally feels sort of completed. The Presonus Quantum DAC was serviceable, but I found it a little bit soft and dull sounding over time, lacking impact and energy. It does take time to learn a DAC but the Pro Ject has immediately got me a bit hyped up, which I think is notable. $100 dollars cheaper than the Emotiva it replaced, and 1/4 of the size and weight, with nearly all of the same features and connectivity. It looks like a toy, but it's really not. I also like setting it at the "Test" mode of distortion reduced, and brickwall filter. Just sounds good in this mode. So I guess for $400 I would recommend it to anyone in need of a good sounding main monitor path and/or headphone path. Unless you've already got a Symphony or whatever. I have a small nightmare/fantasy of becoming a Mastering Engineer and having to audition $10,000 speakers and converters to see what comes out on top. Luckily my meager living situation will prevent that for now. Or the rare and therefore extremely valuable svartbox..
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Post by Guitar on Aug 4, 2018 17:40:39 GMT -6
Basically my experience with the Pre Box S2 Digital is the same as Jerome's in the opening post. The sound is analog-y. No "digititus" on this box. The sound is clear but it has also a visceral quality. Brightness or dullness has been a problem with some converters but this one seems to strike a good balance, where a lot of the strength seems to happen in the midrange. The image is the most clear thing I've ever heard. Pinpoint precision. I actually had to calibrate my monitors more carefully because I was hearing faults in my setup. Separation is astounding. Dynamics. I was hearing soft to loud dynamics that I've never heard before on any other rig. You could practically "see" the fader ride. The Fun Factor. Music is engaging and stimulating. You just want to keep hearing it. In the old days my converters would push me away, fight me. Then they got "OK." They they became "pretty special with small niggles," and this one just feels like, "OK, we've got there." This is probably the most important point for me. If I'm going to be doing this 4+ hours every day I better damn well be treated to something nice. Live music has always been a thrill for me. Getting the studio rig to represent that fairly has been a lifelong pursuit for me. Every little bit counts and this particular bit counts a lot. Other than a subwoofer, which may not even be important, my monitoring rig finally feels sort of completed. The Presonus Quantum DAC was serviceable, but I found it a little bit soft and dull sounding over time, lacking impact and energy. It does take time to learn a DAC but the Pro Ject has immediately got me a bit hyped up, which I think is notable. $100 dollars cheaper than the Emotiva it replaced, and 1/4 of the size and weight, with nearly all of the same features and connectivity. It looks like a toy, but it's really not. I also like setting it at the "Test" mode of distortion reduced, and brickwall filter. Just sounds good in this mode. So I guess for $400 I would recommend it to anyone in need of a good sounding main monitor path and/or headphone path. Unless you've already got a Symphony or whatever. I have a small nightmare/fantasy of becoming a Mastering Engineer and having to audition $10,000 speakers and converters to see what comes out on top. Luckily my meager living situation will prevent that for now. Or the rare and therefore extremely valuable svartbox.. the mythical svartbox! I still need to hear one sometime. I find it incredible that I've met someone personally with the skills needed to design something like that. Kudos for that, I am a wannabe engineer every time I fire up my soldering iron.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 4, 2018 18:55:00 GMT -6
I was comparing this to the Motu 16a the other day. Had both hooked up to a switcher. I struggled to hear a significant difference. Maybe a tad more defined in the low end on the S2. The Motu 16a is really a great box. Wondering if I even need an external DAC. I have two more days to return the S2.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 4, 2018 19:31:07 GMT -6
Any reason why I shouldn't use the S2 as my main volume control? Thinking about running the S2 off the 16a as the main DAC, and using the S2 as a monitor controller of sorts. Volume control and headphone. I've got a speaker selector (Mammoth Cave Audio 3-to-3) I'd run the S2 into if I want to switch to my Mixcube or anything. Just seeing if I can avoid having to splash for a monitor controller seeing how the 16a doesn't have volume control or headphone. Any loss of resolution or anything with the volume knob? This is an interesting question to me. The question is "will the volume encoder hold up over time." I had an Emotiva DC-1, the volume encoder crapped out in under 5 years of regular use. I have had pretty bad luck with Emotiva quality on more than one product, however, I must add. A different experience, the encoder on my pro-sumer car stereo has been going strong for 13 years or so. I am now using a Drawmer MC2.1 monitor controller which has a serviceable volume pot assembly that can be replaced for about $20. So there is a backup plan there. I had to repair, and sell my DC-1 to buy the Pro Ject Pre Box S2 Digital... which I guess brings me to my next post! Man I had bad luck with Emotiva stuff too...I bought one of heir passive inline knobs - like the TC Control thing...returned twice and none of the three worked.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 4, 2018 19:34:25 GMT -6
I was comparing this to the Motu 16a the other day. Had both hooked up to a switcher. I struggled to hear a significant difference. Maybe a tad more defined in the low end on the S2. The Motu 16a is really a great box. Wondering if I even need an external DAC. I have two more days to return the S2. Dang man...so you moved on from the Symphony? I put mine up to see if there were nibbles...nothing.
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Post by yotonic on Aug 5, 2018 3:02:10 GMT -6
If you are a songwriter you don't need a great AD. Especially because with convertors there "really is" a negligible difference between first in class and fifth. You need great instruments and gear that will peel back the layers and show you the "actual colors and tones you are working with". How many times have you played a simple familiar chord progression on a Steinway B and suddenly "heard" a melody or song that had never been there before, or strummed a vintage Martin and all of a sudden you are hearing colors and ideas that weren't there for you on your J45. The same thing applies to great microphones, they can present tone and texture in your voice that suddenly makes you not recognize who you are listening to and it allows you to stay in the moment and create through the inspiration of sound. Digital conversion contributes to none of that and that's okay, it has its place, but not in music creation.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 5, 2018 5:30:17 GMT -6
What about a songwriter who is also a producer/engineer?
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