|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 2, 2018 17:17:26 GMT -6
***EDIT*** My original question is listed below regarding interfacing this DAC with a purely balanced monitor controller, the Antelope Satori in my case. I updated the title because this turned very quickly into a post centered around the Pro-ject S2 Digital, which one of our finest members at spotting truly under the radar gear jimwilliams mentioned a while back and he truly nailed this one. My first day with it was simply powered straight from the USB port on my laptop and listening through my Ultrasone PRO 750's. A lot of my impressions are listed below, but to give a quick run down of it, I was just blown away by how this box totally changed how my Ultrasone's sounded. I always felt they were solid headphones, and mostly listening off the HP port of the MacBook to check mixes, the S2 provided so much clarity, punch, solid lowend and depth that I had a new appreciation for my Ultrasones, really, it made that much difference. Moving on to integrating it into my rig... I think what I love most about his DAC is how effortless it opens up the soundstage, headroom, punch, the truly analog-like sound of the bottom-end and midrange. The transients are spot on, and that tells me they've set this DAC up in a way so the engine is much more than the car actually needs, which is a great thing. The Dual Mono/parallel ES9038's really make it seem like you're mixing totally in the analog world. I always loved how the SSL6000E I worked on for so many years sounded in the bottom-end and being able to judge your eq/filtering for the L/R without the the sound mushing towards the center because of bad conversion or jitter in the digital world. On the 6000E it was such a wide sounding console you could easily hear where you needed to go when balanced the stereo image of the mix. The S2 gives you that, in you really are able to hear clearly what's happening on hard panned L/R instruments/voices without having to solo the left or the right, letting you really balance the mix in stereo as you're moving through it. Next my mind was completely blown when I signed up for the free trial of Tidal with MQA streaming. The first album I heard in MQA 96khz and letting the S2 unfold the MQA rather than the software, it was like being immersed. So much you can hear and pinpoint in even dense mixes that you never knew existed on those albums you've heard and listened to for 20 years, it's mind blowing. The big thing here regarding hi-res playback on the S2 is that it makes just sitting and listening to music a lot of fun. It makes you want to dive into the next mix on your calendar right away, and placing things in the stereo field is just effortless and how that translates to the car and lesser systems..... This DAC can really up your game very quickly and like I said, it's just fun to listen to music on. And again I can't get over just how analog'ish this thing sounds. Guys that worked off consoles for a long time and stayed in the analog domain from the console to the monitors will feel like they're working back on that console again, guaranteed. Love this DAC and love ESS for creating such amazing components for these guys to build off of. If you're buying one or have already gotten one by now, please post in here with your impressions because as this box gains a reputation people will want to reflect on this thread to make sure there's no Placebo crap going on, that they can confirm what they're hearing/experiencing. Thanks guys, Thanks Jim. Jerome Mason || I need to go RCA into my Antelope Satori..... I read a little on Antelopes QA and it says there's no issue with it accepting unbalanced lines. I'm just curious about noise... level.... I've never used a HiFi style box, and never as critical as my DAC before, but the specs to price ratio is just way too good to pass up, It'd cost me a fortune to get this quality in a pro device and I don't even know if such a device in the pro world would even spec this good honestly. jimwilliams suggested the Project S2 and I looked at that thing for a solid 2 months, watched/read a bunch of reviews and overviews and searched everywhere for something in the pro world that would get somewhat near it, but it really isn't out there unless you've got 10x the budget. If it's as simple as some RCA to TS cables and letting it fly, at least let me know some cables to help keep noise away and that are solid good cables. My run won't be over 6' to the controller. || Jerome Mason |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jun 2, 2018 18:36:55 GMT -6
Good question. Don’t have much experience with RCA...I bet Bob Olhsson or ericn might know. |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 2, 2018 18:59:33 GMT -6
The inputs on the Satori are TRS..... I'm guessing a good quality RCA to TS cable will do the trick, the only thing I'm curious on is it going to mess anything up going from -10db to a device that is used to receiving +4db. I'm not sure if the Pro-ject S2 lets you choose between +4 and -10 or not, but I didn't see anything that highlighted that, so I'm guessing it's going to spit out -10db. I definitely would rather have a straight wire connection and not put anything between the DAC and Satori.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937 
|
Post by ericn on Jun 2, 2018 19:07:54 GMT -6
Okay it shouldn’t be a problem, simple RCA to 1/4 adaptors should work fine, but yeah there is always a but, RCA jacks and plugs can be finicky because there is no standard for the size of the conductor and some times taking a pliers and crimping the outside ground conductors of the plug to the jack can solve a hum issue.
RCA equipped gear is rated at a nominal -10 dB, most in reality is hotter so no biggy just take some time to gain stage an you will be fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by bram on Jun 3, 2018 0:27:40 GMT -6
Curious what you end up using, Jerome. I’ve been eyeing the Project S2 as a converter for my Apollo. My monitor controller (SPL 2381) has selectable RCA inputs for the source, so I’m thinking it would be fairly simple to let the controller convert the signal to balanced out into the monitors, I don’t know what kind of quality hit the signal would take in doing so though.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Jun 3, 2018 3:02:16 GMT -6
Curious what you end up using, Jerome. I’ve been eyeing the Project S2 as a converter for my Apollo. My monitor controller (SPL 2381) has selectable RCA inputs for the source, so I’m thinking it would be fairly simple to let the controller convert the signal to balanced out into the monitors, I don’t know what kind of quality hit the signal would take in doing so though. Don’t over think it! I’ll bet internally your monitor controller converts balanced signals to unbalanced and then back to balanced at the output like most gear. Unbalanced is only really a problem if your in RF hell or running long lines. |
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Jun 3, 2018 10:59:47 GMT -6
The Project Audio Pre Box S2 works fine here with anything I attach it too. I have a couple of them here. One is for the TV room, the other floats. Just ground pin 3 on a XLR. It has plenty of output level, over 2 volts. It uses a 5 volt wort or USB, no grounding issues here.
Yes, it slays every other high end DAC here including AKM, Analog Devices, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jun 3, 2018 12:43:09 GMT -6
The Project Audio Pre Box S2 works fine here with anything I attach it too. I have a couple of them here. One is for the TV room, the other floats. Just ground pin 3 on a XLR. It has plenty of output level, over 2 volts. It uses a 5 volt wort or USB, no grounding issues here. Yes, it slays every other high end DAC here including AKM, Analog Devices, etc. Jim how would you hook it up to a typical interface ? |
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jun 3, 2018 18:51:17 GMT -6
Nix that, it’s just got rca outs right ?
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 3, 2018 20:39:33 GMT -6
The Project Audio Pre Box S2 works fine here with anything I attach it too. I have a couple of them here. One is for the TV room, the other floats. Just ground pin 3 on a XLR. It has plenty of output level, over 2 volts. It uses a 5 volt wort or USB, no grounding issues here. Yes, it slays every other high end DAC here including AKM, Analog Devices, etc. I've got a few things for you Jim, bare with me and I hope you can get to all these points, I'm sure they'll all be points others will be interested in. So just a good quality RCA to T/S cables then? I've got some mogami 2552 with XLR's, if I ground pin 3 on the XLR, where am I going to with it on the RCA plug? Using the 2552 that gives me 3 connections but only two are used in the RCA plug. Tie pins 1 and 3 to shield? Guessing yes? I just want it as clean and artifact free as possible...... My Focals have RCA in's, but the Satori has either balanced TRS or XLR for inputs and I want to def go into my Satori so I can be using all of it's features. With the wort supply though and having both the Satori and S2 plugged into the battery section of my UPS I don't see my having any issues besides some kind of field stray that I'm not aware of. My whole system is dead quiet. I like the idea that my Motu 16a will be feeding a set of inputs on the Satori, the optical out of the 16a into the S2 and the S2 into the Satori, so I get to compare the Sabre versions by simply telling the Motu's optical to mirror it's analog outs in the matrix. I'm really curious to see the improvement from the ES9016 to the ES9038. I also read somewhere that it's possible to swap out the ES9016 for a ES9026 in the Motu....... If that's true, that it's truly able to drop in that would be a mod I might have to do on the 16a, along with upping the opamps and cutting out most of the coupling caps, probably some PSU decoupling as long as I'm in there. Also on the S2, I'm curious on the filters and which one you found to be the truest. One of the complaints (and maybe the only) I've seen from the HiFi guys is that the S2 doesn't hype at all, it's flat, detailed and it's bass is really solid. I've been using a pair of the analog outs from the 16a for the longest time as my DAC, but, I'm guessing that the simple fact they're doing dual mono blocks and I think some parallel outs on the S2 for the ES9038 is going to really open the sound stage and won't feel quite as stressed as the 16a when it comes to monitoring. I can definitely feel the 16a seems a bit stressed when I'm depending on a couple of it's 16 outs for my main monitoring DAC, but it's no slouch. That's kind of a lot, I know you're a busy guy, but if you can find time to hit on those points man I'd really appreciate it. All the best, Jerome |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Jun 3, 2018 21:14:38 GMT -6
The Project Audio Pre Box S2 works fine here with anything I attach it too. I have a couple of them here. One is for the TV room, the other floats. Just ground pin 3 on a XLR. It has plenty of output level, over 2 volts. It uses a 5 volt wort or USB, no grounding issues here. Yes, it slays every other high end DAC here including AKM, Analog Devices, etc. I've got a few things for you Jim, bare with me and I hope you can get to all these points, I'm sure they'll all be points others will be interested in. So just a good quality RCA to T/S cables then? I've got some mogami 2552 with XLR's, if I ground pin 3 on the XLR, where am I going to with it on the RCA plug? Using the 2552 that gives me 3 connections but only two are used in the RCA plug. Tie pins 1 and 3 to shield? Guessing yes? I just want it as clean and artifact free as possible...... My Focals have RCA in's, but the Satori has either balanced TRS or XLR for inputs and I want to def go into my Satori so I can be using all of it's features. With the wort supply though and having both the Satori and S2 plugged into the battery section of my UPS I don't see my having any issues besides some kind of field stray that I'm not aware of. My whole system is dead quiet. I like the idea that my Motu 16a will be feeding a set of inputs on the Satori, the optical out of the 16a into the S2 and the S2 into the Satori, so I get to compare the Sabre versions by simply telling the Motu's optical to mirror it's analog outs in the matrix. I'm really curious to see the improvement from the ES9016 to the ES9038. I also read somewhere that it's possible to swap out the ES9016 for a ES9026 in the Motu....... If that's true, that it's truly able to drop in that would be a mod I might have to do on the 16a, along with upping the opamps and cutting out most of the coupling caps, probably some PSU decoupling as long as I'm in there. Also on the S2, I'm curious on the filters and which one you found to be the truest. One of the complaints (and maybe the only) I've seen from the HiFi guys is that the S2 doesn't hype at all, it's flat, detailed and it's bass is really solid. I've been using a pair of the analog outs from the 16a for the longest time as my DAC, but, I'm guessing that the simple fact they're doing dual mono blocks and I think some parallel outs on the S2 for the ES9038 is going to really open the sound stage and won't feel quite as stressed as the 16a when it comes to monitoring. I can definitely feel the 16a seems a bit stressed when I'm depending on a couple of it's 16 outs for my main monitoring DAC, but it's no slouch. That's kind of a lot, I know you're a busy guy, but if you can find time to hit on those points man I'd really appreciate it. All the best, Jerome XLR pins 3 &1 ground For TRS use a standard 1/4 unbalanced to RCA, the jack in the interface will work fine. |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jun 4, 2018 8:31:15 GMT -6
All this really depends on how the box internally derives a single-ended output from the differential DAC outputs. In theory, using a single-ended output will create an imbalance on the output structures of the DAC and your ENOB will be degraded. Specs are generally fudged towards the "ideal" when the testing engineer calibrates out things like connector losses, etc, anyway, so I never buy on specs anymore.
Hopefully they used a dual I/V to buffer out the DAC imbalance before going to a differential to single-ended conversion.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Jun 4, 2018 9:31:31 GMT -6
The S2 is an all ESS design. The headphone amp/output buffer is also an ESS chip. One look at the innards and any EE will be impressed by the thoughtful layout and design.
Then there is that liquid, analog sound. It's more than impressive, it's audio archeology because you can listen to old well known stuff and hear new things buried deep. And it only costs $399 for all those new discoveries.
My Ross Martin Superbeast II is now for sale. It has an internal torrid AC power supply, external LT low dropout regulators and all ADA 4898-2 signal path with select Dale CMF50 metal film resistors. $200 and it's yours. www.audioupgrades.com
I also have a new Schiit Audio Modi II DAC with the ADA 4898-2 opamp. Costs $250, give me $200 and it's yours. |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 4, 2018 14:08:30 GMT -6
Holy hell............
You couldn't pry this damn thing from my cold dead hands..... phew....
I'll just leave it there.
|
|
|
|
Post by bram on Jun 4, 2018 15:35:30 GMT -6
RGO = Bad for the Wallet, good for the Soul. Gonna grab the S2. Signal flow will be Apollo SPDIF - > MiniDSP Dirac SPDIF -> S2 -> Monitor Controller -> Monitors
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 4, 2018 18:07:15 GMT -6
I can't get over how much more I'm hearing in the #1 the bass, that blows my mind, it's almost like I'm standing beside the bass player.... like the articulation of the bass along with what's right or wrong with it pops out, I was really caught off guard by that one. The verbs and delays, I can hear 10x more detail in that and what really kicked me in the head was when I heard modulation of the verb tail of a lead Vox.... crazy. The overall depth is totally open, listening to a mix I did a while back I burried a Tambo in verb and made it so all I could hear at the time was the attack of it..... The S2, I could hear the freaking thing rattling the whole time in the back of the mix......
Also.... I'm not sure if I'll be able to listen to compressed files anymore.... It's so audible the compression of streaming with this box that it almost turned my stomach when I heard it wash a lush verb's tail out early. And the noticeable noise between the left and right that gets shoved to the center, making the mixes narrow.
That's one hell of a DAC for $399. Solid little bastard too, built like a miniature tank, even the depress of the buttons was different than I expected and made me feel good.
Thanks for recommending this one Jim!
|
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jun 4, 2018 19:54:49 GMT -6
I can't get over how much more I'm hearing in the #1 the bass, that blows my mind, it's almost like I'm standing beside the bass player.... like the articulation of the bass along with what's right or wrong with it pops out, I was really caught off guard by that one. The verbs and delays, I can hear 10x more detail in that and what really kicked me in the head was when I heard modulation of the verb tail of a lead Vox.... crazy. The overall depth is totally open, listening to a mix I did a while back I burried a Tambo in verb and made it so all I could hear at the time was the attack of it..... The S2, I could hear the freaking thing rattling the whole time in the back of the mix...... Also.... I'm not sure if I'll be able to listen to compressed files anymore.... It's so audible the compression of streaming with this box that it almost turned my stomach when I heard it wash a lush verb's tail out early. And the noticeable noise between the left and right that gets shoved to the center, making the mixes narrow. That's one hell of a DAC for $399. Solid little bastard too, built like a miniature tank, even the depress of the buttons was different than I expected and made me feel good. Thanks for recommending this one Jim! How are you connecting it to the 16A? cheers Wiz |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 4, 2018 20:21:20 GMT -6
How are you connecting it to the 16A? cheers Wiz Optical A Toslink I have it hooked up USB as well, the power defaults over to the external no matter if the USB hooked up or not, which I can tell you that the external PSU makes a mighty difference. I will say though I preferred the sound of the 16a just listening to the computer vs. the USB. Something in the bass and I still can't get over how it sounds effortless when you compare it to monitoring off the 16a's analog outs. The lowend almost reminds me of listening off a console, specifically the SSL6000E. That might be some weird placebo, or a honeymoon thing, but I don't think so. There's definitely something about how solid the damn lowend sounds coming out of that DAC. I'd really love for some guys to pick this up and hear if they're getting the same thing. The 16a, a few of us were the first in on it and we all were confirming each other, this seems a lot like that. ESS certainly is hands down the best chip out there regarding DAC's. I am running the BLA MKIII Clock, so maybe it's giving the S2 an extra solid reference to upsample and that's why it just seems tighter, more precise...... Something about it is different and it's really noticeable. And as far as interfacing the S2 with the Satori I just tied pins 1/3 together on the XLR and ran pin 2 hot..... Absolutely no noise at all.... not even any type of hiss with my Satori at max volume, so my concerns there where for nothing. Also like Jim pointed out, there's no issue on impedance or level, the S2 must have a shitload of headroom beyond it's 0db setting because I tried to get it to pinch or distort and it just won't happen. |
|
|
|
Post by winetree on Jun 4, 2018 20:22:49 GMT -6
Picked up my Adcom GFA 555 PRO from Jim Williams yesterday.
Talked for a while and the Pro-jects S2 converter was a large part of the conversation.
With that and his Emovia speakers, he was hearing things he never heard before.
I've been using a modified Super Beast II, Motu 16a, and Aphex 500 rack, and 2 Swart boxes for DACs.
I wasn't going to get the S2 because I couldn't figure out how to hook it up.
But, I should be able to hook up the S2. USB computer out to USB S2 in, then out to speakers.
16a and Aphex 500 rack SPDIF out to S2 should work.
Just ordered an S2.
|
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jun 4, 2018 20:47:15 GMT -6
Picked up my Adcom GFA 555 PRO from Jim Williams yesterday. Talked for a while and the Pro-jects S2 converter was a large part of the conversation. With that and his Emovia speakers, he was hearing things he never heard before. I've been using a modified Super Beast II, Motu 16a, and Aphex 500 rack, DACs. I wasn't going to get the S2 because I couldn't figure out how to hook it up. But, I should be able to hook up the S2. USB computer out to USB S2 in, then out to speakers. 16a and Aphex 500 rack SPDIF out to S2 should work. Just ordered an S2. Hey winetree can you provide the link for purchase please? cheers Wiz |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 4, 2018 22:17:19 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 4, 2018 22:38:09 GMT -6
I really want to see if it is indeed possible to mod the 16a with the ES9026's...... I read on a forum saying that it should drop in, but I can't find pinouts or a schematic of the chip to see if it would indeed drop in.....
If that's possible, truly, it'd be as quick as swapping SMC opamps and cranking it up.... If the ES9026 calls for the same architecture and values around it, same footprint and pinout I don't see why it wouldn't be a drop in..... Couple that with doing Opa1612's throughout, some bypassing caps, some total removal of coupling caps (opa1612 with the low DC offset can let you do this) and then doing some decouping in the conversion area for the PSU, maybe even squeezing some extra juice on supply with the PSU and the 16a would be dangerous.
I suppose all of us with 16a's should be starting our savings funds for the new version...... You've got 2 generations of ESS chips since it was born.... They HAVE to be in development with the 9038PRO and something tells me they'll be using more of the ES9038's as well, maybe doing 4 channel blocks instead of 8.
Does anyone know what the Motu 16a uses on the A/D?? I don't think ESS does the A/D do they?
And a quick note on the S2, the phones output is freaking amazing. It's the same deal, just some really really great design here. My Ultrasone 750's came alive and didn't sound like the same headphones. I'd always thought they were kind of scooped and lacking weight in the 100hz-900hz range, but the S2 just brings them to life.
|
|
|
|
Post by winetree on Jun 4, 2018 22:43:43 GMT -6
"Hey winetree
can you provide the link for purchase please?
cheers
Wiz"
Amazon
"I really want to see if it is indeed possible to mod the 16a with the ES9026's...... I read on a forum saying that it should drop in"
A 16a chip mod would be great, Let us know what you find out.
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 5, 2018 0:37:34 GMT -6
Well, it's going to be tough because I'd have to pull my 16a out and then take it apart to find out at least if the ES9016's look like the ES9026's. I was able to find a block diagram of what's going on inside each, and it's extremely similar. I know they'll leave some features and pins floating, but I'm not sure which Motu is using and all. If we could get them in here to do some QnA we might be able to figure it out. Only problem is, if they are indeed making a 16a#2 they won't tell us jack.
I'd much rather mod my 16a with the ES9026's and trick out the analog path with some converter decoupling than to spend $1,999 (probably the price of the 16a#2 when it hits.) The deal breaker there would be if they paralleled 4 channels per chip instead of maxing the chip's 8 channels out. That's not something we'd be able to do because it's for sure in the design, definitely would make the 16a open up a ton and would decrease the THD, lower the noise floor and increase the headroom. The S2 I believe is 134db and most other multi-channel interfaces out there are from 110db to 120db.
I re read what Jim wrote above as well and he does mention the S2 having an analog/liquid sound and I couldn't agree more. I'm certain that's why I feel like I'm back on an SSL when it comes to the bottom end, there was just always something that console did to the bottom end I've yet to find until listening to this S2. If we could get actual D/A conversion doing this, for those of us who sum, it's going to make us very happy.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jun 5, 2018 7:58:14 GMT -6
Well, it's going to be tough because I'd have to pull my 16a out and then take it apart to find out at least if the ES9016's look like the ES9026's. I was able to find a block diagram of what's going on inside each, and it's extremely similar. I know they'll leave some features and pins floating, but I'm not sure which Motu is using and all. If we could get them in here to do some QnA we might be able to figure it out. Only problem is, if they are indeed making a 16a#2 they won't tell us jack. I'd much rather mod my 16a with the ES9026's and trick out the analog path with some converter decoupling than to spend $1,999 (probably the price of the 16a#2 when it hits.) The deal breaker there would be if they paralleled 4 channels per chip instead of maxing the chip's 8 channels out. That's not something we'd be able to do because it's for sure in the design, definitely would make the 16a open up a ton and would decrease the THD, lower the noise floor and increase the headroom. The S2 I believe is 134db and most other multi-channel interfaces out there are from 110db to 120db. I re read what Jim wrote above as well and he does mention the S2 having an analog/liquid sound and I couldn't agree more. I'm certain that's why I feel like I'm back on an SSL when it comes to the bottom end, there was just always something that console did to the bottom end I've yet to find until listening to this S2. If we could get actual D/A conversion doing this, for those of us who sum, it's going to make us very happy. So I'm gonna say that it's unlikely that swapping chips is going to net a significant increase in fidelity, even IF the chips were somehow drop-in capable. I don't want to be a downer, but there is a lot more involved than just the converter chips themselves. You're up against the internal digital conversion between the USB/SPDIF subsystems as well. Driver handling on the PC/MAC side too. All of the things the audio stream touches or flows through on it's way from the DAW to the analog I/O conspires to change your signal. Then, there are the minute differences in how the DAC chips will interface to the I/V conversion and buffering, which could be optimized for one chip, but be un-optimized for another.. There's the differences in power budgeting and sundry details that could break the system, not even including the differences in register structure or contents that could render the firmware essentially useless with the new chips.. Then there's the aspect of noisefloor, THD, headroom that are more dictated by layout and active component choices than the DAC IC itself, so while the theoretical 134dB looks good on paper, you're likely getting more like 120-124dB in application. You have to remember that the specs included in the datasheet have been extracted from measured data.. AKA: those are the numbers they get when they remove the other variables in the design through modelling and calibration.. They've mathematically removed all the other components, connectors, cables, etc from the results to back into the expected measurement. My converter used the PCM1794A DACs in dual mono mode, which theoretically could do 132dB, but I doubt in practice it got more than 124dB-ish after accounting for noise figure, buffering and parasitic losses. In all my years of designing things, there are two realities that I've learned. Specs are nothing more than marketing. Block diagrams are liars. |
|
