ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2017 12:49:01 GMT -6
And to answer your question - no, I wouldn't consider buying a mic capsule that sounds wrong. Why would I want bad sounding microphones in my studio? Why would you? Some people don't have the money to spend any more than $60-$70 on a capsule. Imperfect B-stock capsules, or a punt on Aliexpress, are both viable options for them. (and with some circuit voodoo, you can make a subpar capsule sound okay) Except for the facts Even a perfect spec Capsule, has higher by a huge margin distortion figures than any electronic device than speakers. Transducers are the Achilles heal of our recording chain. This is nothing new. The problem with out of spec return to vendor capsules is they eventually end up in some low hanging fruits mic. The little lacks the tools to show the Capsule he bought is out of spec., and the clout to return it . Those buying B-stock capsules are going to be the ones least likely to compensate for a bad Capsule! Manufacturers like Behringer save by not performing QC, they don't care because they know their market cares most about price point. I have often wondered how much a manufacturer like Manley really saves with QCing the capsules for the Cardiod rather than using a higher quality vendor.
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Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 12:57:04 GMT -6
Capsules are a dark art component, made by CNC machines in China by the hundreds of thousands every month, for the last 50-years... You simply don't know what you're talking about. You failed to ask normally, but here's your breakdown attached in PDF to not clog up the thread. But... this entire post is pointless, because you have no idea what any of this costs... You're stuck in some imaginary world where it's okay to pay $900 for the Delphos, and Chinese microphone capsules are a dark art where 70% of them fail or are rejected... Funnily enough, those other companies listed in the breakdown seem to be doing just fine selling with 50% of Roswell's margin. The reality is that a transformerless FET mic like the Delphos, with a Chinese capsule, is not worth more than $300 in the current market. If that price is impossible to achieve, then it's not a viable product. By no means is it a premium or boutique product, just because you're assembling a PCB in the US. And by no means should clients be paying for your inefficiencies as a manufacturer. More importantly, the sound of that capsule, it doesn't change because you're soldering a wire in California! Now who am I? I could be a consumer, a manufacturer, or even a factory owner. Difference between me and you, I don't talk about things I know nothing about (and I don't go around telling people Elektro-Harmonix tubes are Made in China) But please, by all means, take my breakdown apart. I'm looking forward to actual quotes from China to back your claims up, otherwise, once again, you don't have a leg to stand on. Capsule quote also attached. So you believe that CNC machines knocking things out by the thousands can match the quality of skilled machinists working to an exacting spec? Man, my late uncle - who was a master machinist and shop foreman for Western Electric would have a few things to teach you.... There's a reason that the only companies that come close to the quality of mics produced in the "golden age" manufacture their capsules by hand. You should think about it. Anbd it's, er, "interesting" that you should be telling Coil Audio, who is in the business of manufacturing audio devices, that "But... this entire post is pointless, because you have no idea what any of this costs... You're stuck in some imaginary world... " I would suggest that you rethink that. Really. And please enlighten us - what audio company do YOU operate? Let's put things on a fair footing here. Me, I'm just a service tech as far as this conversation is concerned. Thats really cool about your uncle - he'd probably have ALOT to say in regards to this exchange (term used very loosely) -
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Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 13:07:06 GMT -6
Manley uses 797audio. Not the worst in China by any margin... Bock uses them too. more #fakenews
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2017 13:23:05 GMT -6
I'm not going to delve into what capsule is better, etc. I have original Neumanns, Thiersch capsules, and chinese capsules of both great quality and poor quality. They all have their place and I use all of them.
Now, I will speak to Chinese manufacturing because I use USA, Taiwan and China manufacturing in my professional engineering day job.
First, everyone needs to get the notion that China/Asia can't build things to tight tolerances out of their heads. It was true as soon as 10-15 years ago, but NOT anymore. They can do anything as well as any other country and often use high quality machinery just as any other location would.
What is different is that "China" is a very, very big place, and there are many more "factories" per city than just about anywhere else in the world. You can often find 100 million dollar factories next to a couple folks in a shack hammering out junk on the same street.
Because of this and the sheer number of products of varying quality that come from China as a whole, the view of Chinese products hasn't changed much because the vast majority of consumers are still following the Wal-mart led philosophy of buying the cheapest products that will fulfill their needs.. That just happen to come from China.
However, one thing that China still doesn't do very well is innovation. They are superb at copying and building to specifications. If I needed a piece made to 1/10000th of an inch, they could absolute do it.. As long as I was the one supplying the design. That is currently changing right now, and in 10 years they'll also be on par with any other country in innovation too.
So if you're buying Chinese capsules that you need to sort through to find "good" ones, it's not because they inherently make low-grade products, it's because the company that commissioned the capsules specified them like that, probably to hit a certain price/performance point. They could absolutely do a perfect copy of a German capsule if someone were to plop down the huge amount of cash to do so, but that would eat up profits. Lots of companies use the mantra of "Not that bad is good enough" when it comes to consumer-grade products. Clearly it works based on the huge market for cheap microphones that use chinese capsules these days. All built to a price point, and perform good enough that folks keep buying them.
The problem is that whole Wal-Mart mentality I spoke of. When you have folks buying tons of cheap capsules hoping to game the system by finding a gem, what's the incentive for the manufacturer to take the next step to increase quality if you're now competing with Neumann and Thiersch? The answer is not much if most of your consumer base still believes that you make junk that isn't worth German capsule money.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 8, 2017 13:34:30 GMT -6
I'll take a dynamic over a bad condenser any day. Pile of cheaper old EV's will probably win that shootout. FWIW.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2017 13:45:28 GMT -6
No. They should save their money and buy something decent. And no, they can't make something subpar onto something decent. I'm not saying it's impossible, mind you, I'm just saying that if they have the investment to put into the required test equipment needed to anaylze the defective capsule they are not going to want to waste their time fooling around with defective parts, they'll just buy something that works right and save a lot of time (and probably money, in the long run.) And you don't make great recordings using capsules that just sound "okay". (Not unless you've got super talent in front of the mic. But super talent probably isn't going to want to use a studio with home made mics that just sound "okay", unless maybe they're members of your immediate family.) Please re-read what I said... You're confusing companies with end-users: Companies can sell off their b-stock to end-users who can't afford better. There is a market for $30 garbage, all the way to $2'000 original CK12's. We don't all drive around in sports-cars, and we can't all afford 'great' microphones to make 'great' recordings. Some of us have to do with less... It's just not the same discussion, and it's tiring having to constantly qualify everything. Er, no. Selling off junk to suckers is not what I would regard as a scrupulous business practice. Just because you CAN sell something to some poor fool who doesn't know any better does not mean that you should. Does Sennheiser sell off off-spec Neumann capsules? No, they don't, it wouldn't be right. There was a time when I thought kinda like you, always looking for "bargains." I have a drawer full of microphones from those days, some of them used only once. I still have them because I could not, in good conscience, sell them to somebody else. I have another drawer or two full of what might be regarded as "mid-tier" mics - those sometimes get used for live sound gigs and the like. I still look for bargains, but the bargains I buy now cost a lot more. A KM-84 at half market cost. A brass capsule C-12A for about 1/3 market. An older U-87ai (I believe pre-Sennheiser) for half market price (through a dealer, from the Fantasy Records remote truck sale.) A Beyer M-160 that cost me a brand new M-201, which I got as a buddy deal from my pro audio dealer for $200. A couple of RE-20s. A couple of prototype TM-1s, hand made by David Pearlman, one through a mutual friend, the other from a guy on GS who had to sell. A few others. But if I'd been wasting my money buying cheap junk "bargains" I wouldn't have been able to jump on those deals when they appeared. I'm not confusing anything with anything. You're confusing cheap mass produced knock-offs with microphone capsules worth using. And YOU are the one confusing apologies for cheap knock-off capsules with the topic of this thread, which, the last time I looked, is " LDC with KM84 Circuit" (Extended rant redacted - if you don't get it by now..... <shakes head>.) I believe that's the point. Er, no. Those companies are required by law to meet certain standards. And I'm pretty certain that they'd be out of business toot sweet if they knowingly tried passing off defective products on customers - or at least get hit with really heavy sanctions. BTW, the term "B-stock" apperas to have been corrupted in recent years. What it's supposed to mean is fully functional product being discounted for slight cosmetic blemishes, or because the box has been opened to use the product as a demo model. REAL B-stock meets spec and carries full factory warranty. There is a correct term for what you're calling "B-stock". That term is "rejects".
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2017 13:45:35 GMT -6
Sure SM58's kinda resemble U47's when put through top of the line outboard.
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Post by drbill on Aug 8, 2017 13:50:21 GMT -6
Man, this thread is painful..... I'm having a lot of difficulty figuring out whose **** is the longest.
I agree about the EV's and China being able to turn out anything the rest of the world can - IF - you pay the right price and design it right. As for innovation coming directly from China in 10 years - I agree with that as well. Primarily funded by US higher education and Chinese determinism.
In the town in So Cal where I used to live, there were multiple $1M-1.5M homes on my street bought by Chinese businessmen just to have a place for their kids who were attending US schools - USC, UCLA, etc.. For the sake of bottom line, our US companies and government have sold out the American dream to the far east - so that we could all have 4 TV's, 3-4 cars, and 5 cell phones per family. China will be the new US - at least technologically and manufacturing-wise in 10-20 years. If they aren't already. If you're getting cheap *** **** from China, it's because thats what you paid for - not because that's all they can put out.
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Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 14:22:23 GMT -6
Sure SM58's kinda resemble U47's when put through top of the line outboard. You are quite correct! You should hear an A/B of an SM7 vs a long-body u47 through a certain domestic mfgs tube preamp. Very interesting -
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2017 15:11:28 GMT -6
Manley uses 797audio. Not the worst in China by any margin... Bock uses them too. more #fakenews Bock/ Soundelux 195 & 95 used Chinese capsules Manley Cardiod uses one as did the Manley "Langvin" mics so Not sure of exact source so this may be true! Neither MFG has denied this fact!
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2017 15:17:19 GMT -6
Let's see... the title of this thread is "LDC with KM84 Circuit" - that seems to me like a rather interesting topic for some experimentation. There could be something to be learned there.
But somebody please explain to me how anything at all might be learned by performing the research using a defective/broken mic capsule? Seems to me to be a bit of a wank.
And this place needs a "facepalm" smiley, I think...
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Post by wiz on Aug 8, 2017 15:58:17 GMT -6
Probably wouldnt hurt to move on
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 16:33:53 GMT -6
Bock/ Soundelux 195 & 95 used Chinese capsules Manley Cardiod uses one as did the Manley "Langvin" mics so Not sure of exact source so this may be true! Neither MFG has denied this fact! The new force line might be manufactured there, im aware that they do a fair amount of metalwork for folks (the boxes look familiar)- but i HIGHLY doubt that any of the big pricetag legacy hardware is assembled at 797. I cant speak for certain as to Bock but It sounds like just another half-baked broadstroke claim - as the kids say "pics or it didnt happen"
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Post by drbill on Aug 8, 2017 16:39:27 GMT -6
I'll rent time at your local cage fight venue if you guys will take it over there......
Geez....
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2017 16:48:48 GMT -6
Bock/ Soundelux 195 & 95 used Chinese capsules Manley Cardiod uses one as did the Manley "Langvin" mics so Not sure of exact source so this may be true! Neither MFG has denied this fact! The new force line might be manufactured there, im aware that they do a fair amount of metalwork for folks (the boxes look familiar)- but i HIGHLY doubt that any of the big pricetag legacy hardware is assembled at 797. I cant speak for certain as to Bock but It sounds like just another half-baked broadstroke claim - as the kids say "pics or it didnt happen" The bodies and metal work are their usual quality I'm talking strictly Capsules! I think this why Bock res erected the Soundelux name for the entry level line. Again just capsules I had a 195 for a couple of years not a bad mic, but it covered the same ground as my Lawson FET, build Quality was as good as any mic I have seen .
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Post by drbill on Aug 8, 2017 16:59:38 GMT -6
so.....how about those KM84's. Anyone ever put a LDC capsule on one? Is there anything out there with the same thread pattern? Or perhaps an adapter to allow retrofit (although the "needle" might preclude that.....)
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Post by reddirt on Aug 8, 2017 17:01:50 GMT -6
A salient point is that if you want to run a business a la Roswell and stand by your product with decent R & D , quality control etc and pay employees and yourself a decent wage not to mention advertising, rents etc then it's going to cost so much more than the itemised cost of components. What the customer receives in return is a guarantee of quality and for most of them, a product they could not build themselves.
As to the KM84, I have used them often as a vocal mic and placed correctly they sound 'expensive". I did record an acoustic album before DAWs were common place , direct to DAT with a KM 84 on vox and another on guitar which sounded fine until that one pop which is it's Achillies heel if you don't get the placement right. (The ruin of a great take caused protracted angst between the artist and myself!)
Cheers, Ross
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2017 17:04:59 GMT -6
I had the Bock 195 for a few weeks. It was a good sounding mic, great on acoustics, but the cardioid pickup pattern felt too wide. This is something I pay close attention to, but I rarely hear people speak of it. It's one of the biggest differences I notice when using Neumann mics. The pickup range feels huge, but not too wide, if that makes sense, and the off-axis range is exceptional. Mics that use Neumann's basic ideas to make either cheap imitations, good imitations, or high end boutique clones often fall short in this aspect. There's just something perfect about the way a U67 or U87 pickup pattern reacts, including proximity.
So, using a Neumann design like the 84 and trying it with a large capsule could be interesting, but if the pickup pattern range is a function of the capsule, then the capsule in any Neumannesque creation had better be good.
Maybe the designers and engineers here can explain what I'm referring to in a better way than I can.
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Post by wiz on Aug 8, 2017 17:08:35 GMT -6
I had the Bock 195 for a few weeks. It was a good sounding mic, great on acoustics, but the cardioid pickup pattern felt too wide. This is something I pay close attention to, but I rarely hear people speak of it. It's one of the biggest differences I notice when using Neumann mics. The pickup range feels huge, but not too wide, if that makes sense, and the off-axis range is exceptional. Mics that use Neumann's basic ideas to make either cheap imitations, good imitations, or high end boutique clones often fall short in this aspect. There's just something perfect about the way a U67 or U87 pickup pattern reacts, including proximity. So, using a Neumann design like the 84 and trying it with a large capsule could be interesting, but if the pickup pattern range is a function of the capsule, then the capsule in any Neumannesque creation had better be good. Maybe the designers and engineers here can explain what I'm referring to in a better way than I can. I think off axis response is what really sets the 84 apart from the herd... its brilliant... cheers Wiz
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2017 17:16:57 GMT -6
A salient point is that if you want to run a business a la Roswell and stand by your product with decent R & D , quality control etc and pay employees and yourself a decent wage not to mention advertising, rents etc then it's going to cost so much more than the itemised cost of components. What the customer receives in return is a guarantee of quality and for most of them, a product they could not build themselves. As to the KM84, I have used them often as a vocal mic and placed correctly they sound 'expensive". I did record an acoustic album before DAWs were common place , direct to DAT with a KM 84 on vox and another on guitar which sounded fine until that one pop which is it's Achillies heel if you don't get the placement right. (The ruin of a great take caused protracted angst between the artist and myself!) Cheers, Ross A wise man once told me you can get people to play for free or even pay you to let them play but Damn if you can get them to work for nothin! He owned a club
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Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 17:33:42 GMT -6
The bodies and metal work are their usual quality I'm talking strictly Capsules! I think this why Bock res erected the Soundelux name for the entry level line. Again just capsules I had a 195 for a couple of years not a bad mic, but it covered the same ground as my Lawson FET, build Quality was as good as any mic I have seen . Ah my bad - I would assume that you could easily ala carte any pieces you needed and both companies certainly have the shop space to do the rest of the assembly in house to varying degrees.? If you have the capital you can skin the cat almost any way you see fit as svart pointed out. The Bock mics always seemed solid whenever ive encountered them - not sure if they've changed recently or anything. There was a fly-by-night hip hop studio here town for a while (2005 i think) and they had a Bock 251 as their flagship mic. Used it on a female vocalists record we cut there before it closed(artist name was DRI) and it sounded super sugary. You never hear about Bock too much anymore -
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Post by drbill on Aug 8, 2017 17:43:12 GMT -6
I think off axis response is what really sets the 84 apart from the herd... its brilliant... cheers Wiz I agree with this 300%.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2017 17:58:42 GMT -6
Yep! We all tend to focus on capsules, circuits, tubes and body design, off axis response doesn't get much attention. I think it's one of the defining qualities of great mics. I tried a few SDC's and they didn't touch the 84 until I tried the new Soyuz 0-11 and 0-13. The 0-13 was a monster, best I've ever heard.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2017 19:16:16 GMT -6
Coil, you're hopeless... For your own good, send Roswell a mail asking them where their metalwork is made. Believe them, not me. Me, I promise I'm out of here (sorry OP, will delete posts in a few days to clear up the thread) Can you please explain to me what metalwork has to do with a discussion of mic capsules? How does the frosting on the dessert relate to the main course? Please explain. BTW, erasing your embarrassing posts woun't delete the instances where other people have quoted you...
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2017 19:20:19 GMT -6
You never hear about Bock too much anymore - You don't? I know of another forum where he and Klaus moderate the mic forum.
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