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Post by stormymondays on Aug 23, 2019 9:12:30 GMT -6
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Post by Calvin on Aug 23, 2019 9:22:58 GMT -6
Checking out the demo of SW. I already owned a calibration mic and was able to use its calibration file, so downloading and using demo was a breeze. Pretty impressed so far. I've got a very small room (10'x11'x7'), but it's pretty heavily treated. My main issue is a fairly shallow, but somewhat wide, dip at 160Hz, as can be seen in the screenshots below. I feel like I got pretty close with my room treatments, but it's just impossible to get all the way there in such a small room. SW seems to be getting me closer to ideal. It will be interesting to work with it for a couple weeks to see what difference it really makes in how stuff turns out. Love to have a room that looked like that graph. Nothing fancy here. It's a room I built in our already-finished basement. All I did was construct two new walls to carve out a separate space. Just normal construction - no specialized "studio" building techniques, although I did calculate room nodes ahead of time and selected my width and length dimensions in a manner that spread out the nodes as much as possible given my constraints. Then, it was just a question of getting some treatment at the first reflection points and squeezing in enough fluffy pink stuff to get some kind of control over the low end. I really wish I had a larger space, though. It's tight enough in here that it cuts down my productivity (although I'm sure there are things I could do to enhance efficiency if I put my mind to it).
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Post by Calvin on Aug 23, 2019 9:31:10 GMT -6
I think you are looking at it the wrong way. You might want to have them closer to the front wall, not further into the room. Still, pretty good result! No, I agree. I have them a few inches into the room so as to accommodate the rear ports. I could try pushing them back another inch or two to see what happens. Might still be enough space to allow the ports to operate properly since I'm not monitoring real loud anyway. The ports are fairly wide, so I doubt there would be much resistance exhibited. When I get a few moments, I'll give it a try and see what happens and report back. I'd much rather rely on speaker placement and room treatment as much as possible, then turn to correction solutions to add finishing touches than ask SW to do any heavy lifting. I am impressed with the software to this point, though.
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Post by Calvin on Aug 23, 2019 9:34:05 GMT -6
Thanks, I'll check it out. It's been a while since I've done a deeper dive into the physics of it all.
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Post by Calvin on Aug 23, 2019 10:25:17 GMT -6
I think you are looking at it the wrong way. You might want to have them closer to the front wall, not further into the room. Still, pretty good result! No, I agree. I have them a few inches into the room so as to accommodate the rear ports. I could try pushing them back another inch or two to see what happens. Might still be enough space to allow the ports to operate properly since I'm not monitoring real loud anyway. The ports are fairly wide, so I doubt there would be much resistance exhibited. When I get a few moments, I'll give it a try and see what happens and report back. I'd much rather rely on speaker placement and room treatment as much as possible, then turn to correction solutions to add finishing touches than ask SW to do any heavy lifting. I am impressed with the software to this point, though. Couldn't move the speakers any closer to the front wall. They're as close as they can get with the cables plugged in and with the way they're towed-in a bit. So, I'll have to make do with how they are, which isn't bad at all - particularly for such a small room.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Aug 23, 2019 16:52:55 GMT -6
Your room looks really good. The 160 null might be from speaker distance from front wall. It's certainly possible. I haven't bothered to really do the math to try to figure out why that particular null is there primarily because I'm so space-constrained it's doubtful I could make any meaningful adjustments even if I did understand it better. I have rear-ported speakers (really terrific JBL LSR28p), so I have the speaks pulled out a few inches as measured at the inside corners. They're towed in a bit so the average space from the front wall is maybe 5 or six inches. If I had front or side-ported speakers I could play around with placement a bit more. I definitely can't pull them farther into the room. I've already given up almost a full foot of space at the back of the room with treatment (the entire back wall is fluffy pink fiberglass, and I've got another 2'x4' floor to ceiling fluffy pink stuff in each front corner). Looks like you've done a great job with your room.
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Post by Calvin on Aug 26, 2019 8:37:35 GMT -6
It's certainly possible. I haven't bothered to really do the math to try to figure out why that particular null is there primarily because I'm so space-constrained it's doubtful I could make any meaningful adjustments even if I did understand it better. I have rear-ported speakers (really terrific JBL LSR28p), so I have the speaks pulled out a few inches as measured at the inside corners. They're towed in a bit so the average space from the front wall is maybe 5 or six inches. If I had front or side-ported speakers I could play around with placement a bit more. I definitely can't pull them farther into the room. I've already given up almost a full foot of space at the back of the room with treatment (the entire back wall is fluffy pink fiberglass, and I've got another 2'x4' floor to ceiling fluffy pink stuff in each front corner). Looks like you've done a great job with your room. Thanks. I'm definitely happy with the results. Was not expensive, but I did have to trade off some valuable floor space.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 16, 2019 12:24:02 GMT -6
Well...this is interesting.
So - I run a cheap KRK sub with my ATC's. I connect out of my DA into the Sub (GASP!) and then out of the Sub into the power amp and on to the monitors...On the back of the sub there are a bunch of different options...Volume and Crossover among others...so here's the interesting part. I've always just "earballed" the volume level of the sub by listening to songs I know are mixed really well. For instance, I've used (among many others) Katy Perry's "Last Friday Night" as a good barometer for volume balance. Once I would get the sub volume really thumping and sounding good in relation - that's where I left the volume. But I was always barely turning the sub volume up at all...like it was barely on. Cranking it halfway would blow you out of the room.
That's basically how it was set when I measured my room the last ten times or whatever. And here's what was happening. I have a big -10db dip starting at 70Hz to about 110Hz. About a 3db boost from around 35-70Hz. What happens is that SW compensates that dip by adding 10db at that 70-100Hz - which then leads to me having shit headroom since the monitors are now producing that much more bass when the correction is on. So, I thought I'd turn the sub volume up to a place that isn't crazy, but sounds overbearing without any compensation - and then Re-measure with Sonarworks. Once I did that, it decreased the dip at 70-100 Hz by 6db's...of course, it increased the 35-70db boost by like 8db, but I would much rather Sonwarworks take bottom end out than trying to ADD it. So far, everything sounds WAY punchier and even better than before.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 16, 2019 12:28:43 GMT -6
Damn...I really think the differences are kind of dramatic.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 17, 2019 3:42:35 GMT -6
I try to get get enthused about it and set it up and run it, but always shut it off; guess I have just got used to what my system normally sounds like and calibrated myself accordingly ?
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 18, 2019 9:07:41 GMT -6
I have been going through some gas about buying new monitors...I’ve always struggled with the excitement level on these ATC’s - they don’t “sound” as good as the Amphions...I thought they worked better with the sub than the Amphions, and were maybe a little more true, but I felt like the differences in the mids to top were maybe a little in favor. But - the stereo field and punch probably felt better on the Amphions. Been kind of missing that.
But once I did this, it really feels like new monitors. Better stereo spread, the punch is back...I think cranking the sub just gave SW the ability to work more efficiently.
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Post by mcirish on Oct 18, 2019 10:19:25 GMT -6
That's great John. I really like what Sonarworks does with my monitors. I turned off my sub a while back and haven't missed it. I never did use it with Sonarworks so maybe it would feel more integrated if I started using it again. Either way, Sonarworks (even with the phase shifts of EQs) is absolutely the best thing I've added to my studio in years. making EQ adjustments now is not something I have to double check somewhere else. The difference with and without it is drastic in my studio. I wish the shape of my studio was better and didn't require any correction, but at least Sonarworks gives me a fighting chance at a great mix.
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Oct 18, 2019 10:59:33 GMT -6
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 18, 2019 10:59:33 GMT -6
I have been going through some gas about buying new monitors...I’ve always struggled with the excitement level on these ATC’s - they don’t “sound” as good as the Amphions...I thought they worked better with the sub than the Amphions, and were maybe a little more true, but I felt like the differences in the mids to top were maybe a little in favor. But - the stereo field and punch probably felt better on the Amphions. Been kind of missing that. But once I did this, it really feels like new monitors. Better stereo spread, the punch is back...I think cranking the sub just gave SW the ability to work more efficiently. Really good info John, Have you tried PMC monitors? I switched rooms and can’t believe the difference. A huge, better difference. Put up some older monitors, Genelecs 1030’s and some Mackie 824’s(USA) and they sound great in this larger space. I’m going to have to try Sonarworks. I’m currently on a monitor kick as well. I have my ideas of what would sound good, but you just never know until you get them in your room. I have had many mid priced monitors over the years. I want to try something new, but doing the converter upgrade thing right now.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 18, 2019 11:40:03 GMT -6
I have been going through some gas about buying new monitors...I’ve always struggled with the excitement level on these ATC’s - they don’t “sound” as good as the Amphions...I thought they worked better with the sub than the Amphions, and were maybe a little more true, but I felt like the differences in the mids to top were maybe a little in favor. But - the stereo field and punch probably felt better on the Amphions. Been kind of missing that. But once I did this, it really feels like new monitors. Better stereo spread, the punch is back...I think cranking the sub just gave SW the ability to work more efficiently. Really good info John, Have you tried PMC monitors? I haven't...but eventually I'd like to get out of passive monitors...but I'm limited price wise getting into really good powered monitors. I definitely would like to try some Neumann 310's (I think that's the number) like svart bought from me...but part of me thinks that's just too big for my room. I know some don't like the Barefoot Footprints - but I thought they sounded incredible when I heard them. Be nice to get rid of the sub too.
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2019 13:24:05 GMT -6
Really good info John, Have you tried PMC monitors? I haven't...but eventually I'd like to get out of passive monitors...but I'm limited price wise getting into really good powered monitors. I definitely would like to try some Neumann 310's (I think that's the number) like svart bought from me...but part of me thinks that's just too big for my room. I know some don't like the Barefoot Footprints - but I thought they sounded incredible when I heard them. Be nice to get rid of the sub too. Yes, the KH310D which is the version with the AES/SPDIF input (which is the input I use, haven't even tried the analog input honestly). I really like them. I would think that the KH120D would be a great choice if you didn't get the KH310D (if you come straight out of the SPDIF to the speakers you bypass a whole D/A and A/D process which *might* affect the tone you hear).
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2019 13:27:27 GMT -6
I have been going through some gas about buying new monitors...I’ve always struggled with the excitement level on these ATC’s - they don’t “sound” as good as the Amphions...I thought they worked better with the sub than the Amphions, and were maybe a little more true, but I felt like the differences in the mids to top were maybe a little in favor. But - the stereo field and punch probably felt better on the Amphions. Been kind of missing that. But once I did this, it really feels like new monitors. Better stereo spread, the punch is back...I think cranking the sub just gave SW the ability to work more efficiently. Interesting. I thought your latest mix in the other thread was probably up there with your best overall tones I've heard in your mixes, so clearly the ATC work for you in translating very well even if they might not sound "exciting".
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 18, 2019 13:53:39 GMT -6
I have been going through some gas about buying new monitors...I’ve always struggled with the excitement level on these ATC’s - they don’t “sound” as good as the Amphions...I thought they worked better with the sub than the Amphions, and were maybe a little more true, but I felt like the differences in the mids to top were maybe a little in favor. But - the stereo field and punch probably felt better on the Amphions. Been kind of missing that. But once I did this, it really feels like new monitors. Better stereo spread, the punch is back...I think cranking the sub just gave SW the ability to work more efficiently. Interesting. I thought your latest mix in the other thread was probably up there with your best overall tones I've heard in your mixes, so clearly the ATC work for you in translating very well even if they might not sound "exciting". Thanks - yeah and that was before I did this...so I think I'm hearing it even better right now...
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 18, 2019 13:56:10 GMT -6
Really good info John, Have you tried PMC monitors? I haven't...but eventually I'd like to get out of passive monitors...but I'm limited price wise getting into really good powered monitors. I definitely would like to try some Neumann 310's (I think that's the number) like svart bought from me...but part of me thinks that's just too big for my room. I know some don't like the Barefoot Footprints - but I thought they sounded incredible when I heard them. Be nice to get rid of the sub too. I really like the Barefoot Gen 27’s, out of my price range though. I haven’t heard the Footprints. Kali just came out with a 3 way monitor with concentric midrange/tweeter. Looks sweet, but I haven’t heard a Kali monitor yet, but hear good things for a more budget monitor. Can the Kali monitors compete with a mid-priced monitor? I haven’t heard them. I heard the smaller 2-way Neumann monitors, but they were in a terrible room and I have a feeling they are much better than I heard in that terrible room that day. I was wanting to demo a pair of the Neumanns in my room next. The digital inputs would be interesting to try. Then there’s the Dynaudio LYDS, Eve Audio, Adam’s...So many choices out there. I want to check out Sonarworks.
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Sonarworks
Oct 18, 2019 15:52:44 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 18, 2019 15:52:44 GMT -6
Why would you want to skip your dedicated DA to use the Neumann?
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Sonarworks
Oct 18, 2019 16:07:00 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2019 16:07:00 GMT -6
Why would you want to skip your dedicated DA to use the Neumann? I'm not saying it's needed, but if I can skip any conversion process it might yield less fidelity loss. Plus, if you have multiple spdif outputs your can use the dac output for something else! Or you can split the spdif signal to both the monitors and the dac so you can run a pair of non-digital monitors as well so you can easily a/b without a monitor controller.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 18, 2019 16:33:50 GMT -6
I would just think the DA in a dedicated DA would be better...but I really don't know what I'm talking about lol.
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Oct 18, 2019 17:08:21 GMT -6
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Post by ragan on Oct 18, 2019 17:08:21 GMT -6
Do those Neumanns use DSP? I thought Svart might have been saying that you’re getting the Neuman conversion no matter what but if you go in digital you can at least skip the additional DA/AD.
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Sonarworks
Oct 18, 2019 19:56:22 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2019 19:56:22 GMT -6
Do those Neumanns use DSP? I thought Svart might have been saying that you’re getting the Neuman conversion no matter what but if you go in digital you can at least skip the additional DA/AD. It's almost a guarantee at this point that they do the crossover in DSP in these. Some class D amps now take digital I2S directly from the DSP chips and they never have a single analog signal on the boards anymore. And yeah, it's just bypassing an unnecessary pair of convertors, but not particularly due to any known reason, just a less-is-more approach.
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Oct 18, 2019 20:32:12 GMT -6
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Post by ragan on Oct 18, 2019 20:32:12 GMT -6
Do those Neumanns use DSP? I thought Svart might have been saying that you’re getting the Neuman conversion no matter what but if you go in digital you can at least skip the additional DA/AD. It's almost a guarantee at this point that they do the crossover in DSP in these. Some class D amps now take digital I2S directly from the DSP chips and they never have a single analog signal on the boards anymore. And yeah, it's just bypassing an unnecessary pair of convertors, but not particularly due to any known reason, just a less-is-more approach. I figured that’s what you were getting at.
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Post by theshea on Apr 7, 2020 10:16:04 GMT -6
tried to mix with sonarworks on demo with my headphones and the mix came out really too bass heavy and muddy ... is there really such a learning curve? granted, my yamaha hph mt7 are bass heavy and sonarworks corrects this and after my headphone sounds "weak" in the bass (or at least i was used different). so obviuosly i mixed with too much bass.
did you expierence such a learning curve? i read lots of reviews where "immediately" the mix translated nicely ...
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