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Post by notneeson on Nov 14, 2017 14:07:18 GMT -6
I remember working on a project where we'd tracked 90% of the acoustic rhythm guitars with a KM84 during basics but had to do overdubs with a more limited mic locker.
Rode K2 and Mojave MA-300 weren't cutting it but then my little (omni) EV 635A ended up fitting in well with what we'd already done.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 14, 2017 14:08:56 GMT -6
I remember working on a project where we'd tracked 90% of the acoustic rhythm guitars with a KM84 during basics but had to do overdubs with a more limited mic locker. Rode K2 and Mojave MA-300 weren't cutting it but then my little (omni) EV 635A ended up fitting in well with what we'd already done. That makes some sense since omnis have no off-axis coloration.
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Post by spindrift on Nov 14, 2017 18:38:28 GMT -6
^^^^^ longscale gets it! Regarding the acoustic guitar's recording perspective: Of course, my customer/artists tastes always trump mine, but by default, I tend to record and mix most instruments from the perspective of the musician. The listener is merely along for the ride that the artist and I are creating. I love the sound and first person perspective of playing an acoustic guitar. If that's an omni jammed up near the sound hole or near my head, so be it. It sounds great and immersive to me! I heartily disagree. What the listener hears is the whole point. And since the player is behind and above the soundboard there are whole portions of the spectrum that he misses or hears badly out of proportion. I didn't spend thousands of dollars on a vintage J-200 just to have the listener hear something other than the glorious sound of the guitar. Fair enuf. Different strokes for different folks.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 14, 2017 18:59:35 GMT -6
Love the RE-55 in close and far away on acoustics. I also often use it to mic the strings on hollow-bodies. The distance depends on where the acoustic needs to sit in the arrangement. I have a predecessor, the 654A, need to try it on acoustic. Like the RE-55, wider range than a 635A, of which I have several. 635A are great on club remotes when there's no room for a mic stand near an amp, drape cable over the top of the amp.
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Post by aamicrophones on Nov 16, 2017 17:31:19 GMT -6
Omni is the "bomb" for acoustic guitar recording. Now, its OMNI so the room has to sound good and the isolation should be approaching the NC5 noise criterion.
You can also gobo off around the microphones to reduce the room reflections and room tone but you still have no proxity affect and as stated by John no off-axis coloration.
My favourite Classical recording was part of the Merury Living Presence recordings from the 50's with 3-U47 microphones in OMNI across the front of the Orchestra recorded to the magnetic strips on a 3 track film recorder.
Except for the tape hiss in the very, very quiet sections it sounds like you are sitting in front of an orchestra. We don't build any cardiod only microphones even our CM47fet has an omni option. Our pencil microphones all come with OMNI, CARD and super-cardiod capsules.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 19, 2017 20:10:17 GMT -6
I remember working on a project where we'd tracked 90% of the acoustic rhythm guitars with a KM84 during basics but had to do overdubs with a more limited mic locker. Rode K2 and Mojave MA-300 weren't cutting it but then my little (omni) EV 635A ended up fitting in well with what we'd already done. Gauge and I are also both fans of the EV635a on acoustic guitar. It just works sometimes.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 19, 2017 21:46:17 GMT -6
I was never a big omni mode fan, but having the Chandler REDD for a week made me think twice about that. It sounds like you're in the room with the guitarist, just perfect. I still prefer cardioid, but I've finally backed it off a little to get less boom. The Chandler omni was so good, it would make me be sure to compare it to cardioid for different songs, in case it just fit better.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 19, 2017 21:57:35 GMT -6
I was never a big omni mode fan, but having the Chandler REDD for a week made me think twice about that. It sounds like you're in the room with the guitarist, just perfect. I still prefer cardioid, but I've finally backed it off a little to get less boom. The Chandler omni was so good, it would make me be sure to compare it to cardioid for different songs, in case it just fit better. That's a different thing altogether, being omni derived from back to back diaphragms, which has the same proximity effects as cardioid. Single diaphragm omni has no proximity effect, jam it as close as you want with no extra boom.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 19, 2017 22:33:42 GMT -6
Thanks EmRR, I wasn't aware of the design detail, but the Chandler REDD was the best omni sound I've ever heard. Admittedly I haven't heard lots of them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 3:23:24 GMT -6
I was never a big omni mode fan, but having the Chandler REDD for a week made me think twice about that. It sounds like you're in the room with the guitarist, just perfect. I still prefer cardioid, but I've finally backed it off a little to get less boom. The Chandler omni was so good, it would make me be sure to compare it to cardioid for different songs, in case it just fit better. That's a different thing altogether, being omni derived from back to back diaphragms, which has the same proximity effects as cardioid. Single diaphragm omni has no proximity effect, jam it as close as you want with no extra boom. How does one tell if one's mic is omni derived from back to back diaphragms, or single diaphragm omni, (other than the proximity effect is more pronounced with the former)? My AA CM48T has way less proximity effect in omni mode, than cardioid, but I am presuming it's "omni derived from back to back diaphragms", but then that would seem to negate your point. A little confused...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 20, 2017 9:19:12 GMT -6
That's a different thing altogether, being omni derived from back to back diaphragms, which has the same proximity effects as cardioid. Single diaphragm omni has no proximity effect, jam it as close as you want with no extra boom. How does one tell if one's mic is omni derived from back to back diaphragms, or single diaphragm omni, (other than the proximity effect is more pronounced with the former)? My AA CM48T has way less proximity effect in omni mode, than cardioid, but I am presuming it's "omni derived from back to back diaphragms", but then that would seem to negate your point. A little confused... A dedicated fixed Omni Capsule is probably single an electronicly variable Capsule will always be double.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 20, 2017 9:49:11 GMT -6
Personally, when I think about it, I virtually never use multi pattern or LDC mics for omni. Maybe in a few group vocal cases, more likely fig 8 then. I usually go for an SDC of a single pattern variety which will have better pattern control.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 10:16:48 GMT -6
How does one tell if one's mic is omni derived from back to back diaphragms, or single diaphragm omni, (other than the proximity effect is more pronounced with the former)? My AA CM48T has way less proximity effect in omni mode, than cardioid, but I am presuming it's "omni derived from back to back diaphragms", but then that would seem to negate your point. A little confused... A dedicated fixed Omni Capsule is probably single an electronicly variable Capsule will always be double. Then why does its omni mode produce far less proximity effect at a given distance than the cardioid mode, if, according to EmRR , "Omni derived from back to back diaphragms...has the same proximity effects as cardioid". This is my conundrum.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 20, 2017 10:55:10 GMT -6
A dedicated fixed Omni Capsule is probably single an electronicly variable Capsule will always be double. Then why does its omni mode produce far less proximity effect at a given distance than the cardioid mode, if, according to EmRR , "Omni derived from back to back diaphragms...has the same proximity effects as cardioid". This is my conundrum. Okay Dave can pipe in but here is a theory, remember how I said Cardiods and other sub Cardiod patterns are very non linear off axis & if you look at the polar patterns a Cardiod is less directional as you think? Well as a directional mic is like a speaker in reverse if you look at the polar pattern plots you will see that as you get lower the mic becomes less directional, well as you bring it closer you notice it more and more because the bass is also longer wave length and bouncing around the room it all gets reinforced and you have a bass boost!
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Post by EmRR on Nov 20, 2017 12:53:28 GMT -6
A dedicated fixed Omni Capsule is probably single an electronicly variable Capsule will always be double. Then why does its omni mode produce far less proximity effect at a given distance than the cardioid mode, if, according to EmRR , "Omni derived from back to back diaphragms...has the same proximity effects as cardioid". This is my conundrum. I don't find any plots or distance notes for the AA CM48T to comment. I feel like the larger point being missed is that single diaphram omni has no proximity effect at all, and any derived omni does. The lack of proximity effect and better pattern control are some of the many positives over LDC dual diaphragm omni. All of which goes back to the comment about the Chandler mic, which I take as somewhat off topic in a discussion about SDC omni on guitars; it's a totally different beast with only passing resemblance. If you look at the pattern of many LDC's, the omni position is essentially figure 8 at high frequencies. The SDC single becomes increasingly directional in a cardioid direction.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 13:36:58 GMT -6
Cheers guys, I don't own any "pure" omnis, so thinking of picking up a Line Audio OM1 soon, or one of those 3U Audio jobbies.
AFAIK, no plots exist for the CM48T, I'm going on my experience using the mic. Far less proximity effect in omni as compared to cardioid.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 20, 2017 14:43:59 GMT -6
It's possible the distance difference between diaphragms is causing cancellation in omni.
Quoting John Willett elsewhere:
That difference would also affect omni behavior.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 20, 2017 22:37:06 GMT -6
My suggestion is all! I record using both cardoids and omnis and both give me great results. I sometimes use both (watch for phase) and from the artist and listeners perspective sometimes. I than sometimes add haas effect to give it dimension (if i dont just duplicate the omni and drag the duplicate forward a microsecond) and then smile at my meager accomplishment. When i am in a good room my default is omni.
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Post by Ward on Nov 21, 2017 11:14:15 GMT -6
First of all, an Electro-Voice 635a is an ENG microphone - an electronic news gathering device. And has a fabulous frequency response of about 600 hz to 3Khz. Phenomenal. And it is fantastic for picking up the most obtuse elements in the sound field without your even knowing! SURPRISE! Nothing like the unexpected to give you a unique bonus.
Second, omni microphones (or omni modes on multi-pattern mics) pick up the source first, but only if it is louder than all background noise, so keep your room and your performance EXTREMELY quiet for best results.
Try not to breathe.
For the rest of us mere mortals not able to behave well enough for an OMNI nor able to 'hear the magic of a 635a' modified bass guitar pickup that has been castrated, we'll have to stick to our KM84s, KM54s, 64s, M582s, Beyer 940s etc
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 21, 2017 11:55:36 GMT -6
Omni LDC's are useful when you just need a higher sensitivity rating. Distant mic'ing quiet sources, namely. There's a good paper I've posted here on the difference between single and dual diapraghm LDC's. The Omni mode of an LDC does have 'some' proximity effect but it's drastically reduced - in most situations I'd use an omni I'd consider the difference fairly negligible. Found It! cdn.shure.com/publication/upload/340/pdf_ea_dual_diaphragm_mics.pdf
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Post by EmRR on Nov 21, 2017 19:46:57 GMT -6
Ward seems to get really angry when EV dynamics are brought up, it's not the first time. : ) 635a response looks better than many mics: and not unlike the km184: not that looks mean anything.
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