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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 10, 2017 10:18:37 GMT -6
Personally, I am a fan of clones cus I can't afford the real thing.
I think companies like Warm Audio, Stam, CAPI, etc.., create value added products, which include really good prices ?
Discuss amongst yourselves !
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Post by adamjbrass on Nov 10, 2017 11:06:29 GMT -6
I am neutral, I just want good stuff. I tend to gravitate towards new sounds. Clones are fine. even when they re-work them. Its all re-work anyway. VERY Expensive Clones don't make any sense to me. I don't see the value in it. Unless they sound magical. They do sound magical in some cases, but still may not be worth the expense, with other options. IME, they usually aren't. Plenty of amazing non-cloned things, [fresh innovative items] are in abundance actually, believe it or not. Its just that the shiny objects of hype and flash insta-fashion can take over. That is mostly marketing. Thats fine too.. I tend to call it like it is.
Everything has its own vibe based on the parts used, person building it [how much care is put into every thought of it] and most are indeed a percentage of the way there, but there are TONS of other things in the world that bare similar fruit to ANY lauded piece of gear. Very few things cannot be replicated most of the way in good form.
That last little percentage is of no use me. Vintage gear sounds different. Vintage 47's all sound different from one another. That bothers me. Its a crapshoot.
Regarding products, I just want something that is reliable, built well, has a great sound for the expectation of the device and its price tag, as well as a company who stands behind it. When the clones become "just fancy eye-candy" in the studio, without making a LARGE impression on your art, their collectors approach is simply useless. I want to get to work with this gear, so sound is the most important aspect of the tool. Otherwise, I get pretty bored with it, because I already know there are thousands of other mediocre things to use in the world. Its fine for what they are. Its almost like the brands are "Challenging" the market with it. I've always been more fond of someone who is unique in their style.
peace
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Post by notneeson on Nov 10, 2017 11:27:58 GMT -6
Here's what I like: there is such a great variety of attainable, great sounding gear compared to when I started recording bands 20+ years ago when ADAT vs Tascam 80-8 seemed like a choice (in my world).
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Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2017 11:29:32 GMT -6
I'm OK with clones, but I just want the number 47 to be stricken from all forthcoming microphone releases.....forever. :-)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 11:47:24 GMT -6
If it's really an EXACT clone but cheaper, then I'm all in favour. But what seems to happen 99.999% of the time is they are a very sad approximation that don't deserve to be called clones at all. I don't mind if they are labelled as "similar to" or "tributes to", or "based on". But if it's a CLONE it ought to have the EXACT same DNA, as that's it, by definition.
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Post by christopher on Nov 10, 2017 12:26:37 GMT -6
BAE 1073 to me is an amazingly modern sounding preamp, even though its marketed to be an exact clone. It sounds fuller and rounder to me (in online comparisons) yet the original 73's have a character and vibe that is other worldly in complexity and tone. I wouldn't expect them to have the same name. Both would be great tools to use, depending on artist style and song. Then there's the AML stuff which sound to me like a BAE clone. Then the Stam stuff that sounds like a BAE clone. All of it sounds great.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 12:39:00 GMT -6
I think it's unfortunate the way a lot of upstart manufacturers appear to be painting themselves into clone corners. I understand it from a marketing perspective (easier to build demand/ a following with a clone than a fresh product), but the whole clone at every pricepoint is starting to get a little tired now. The equivalent of Klon guitar pedals.
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Post by jayson on Nov 10, 2017 13:14:53 GMT -6
Depends on why the clone is being cloned and who's doing the cloning. If a manufacturer wants to market an EXACT clone of something, it should be done with as much precision as possible. But variations on clones seem to be how a lot of gear is evolving these days. I'm interested seeing more new ideas that are evolving from vintage designs but really becoming their own entities. A good example would be the tube mic I purchased back in the 90s; a Lawson L-47. Ostensibly that would be a clone of a U-47, but this mic has a wiring scheme more like a C-12 that's built around 6072 tube circuit. To my ear it doesn't sound anything like a U-47 or a C-12 but it sounds mighty darn nice - just in it's own way. Even if Gene Lawson was initially using the U-47 as a starting point, he certainly allowed his design to take on a life of it's own. I don't think experimentation like that should be discouraged if the end result is worth it...even if it is sort of "coat-tailing" a hefty percentage of the initial R&D.
Having spewed that, I'll insert the caveat of saying that IF the design is to be it's "own thing", DON'T NAME IT AFTER SOMETHING IT'S NOT!
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Post by c0rtland on Nov 10, 2017 13:51:37 GMT -6
Plenty of amazing non-cloned things, [fresh innovative items] are in abundance actually, believe it or not. peace Gefell Um900 Chandler Redd Samar mf65 All flawless. Just to name a few
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Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2017 14:16:52 GMT -6
Plenty of amazing non-cloned things, [fresh innovative items] are in abundance actually, believe it or not. peace Gefell Um900 Chandler Redd Samar mf65 All flawless. Just to name a few Yes!! And all of which I'd rather have than another tired "47" clone.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 10, 2017 14:30:32 GMT -6
I'm OK with clones, but I just want the number 47 to be stricken from all forthcoming microphone releases.....forever. :-) There are 47 things I disagree with in the post above !
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Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2017 14:37:40 GMT -6
I'm OK with clones, but I just want the number 47 to be stricken from all forthcoming microphone releases.....forever. :-) There are 47 things I disagree with in the post above ! Cool!! Get yourself a "clone" 47 then and feel good!!! <thumbsup> PS - I think the incurable need to use a number to piggyback off of a legend is going to ultimately hurt small manufacturers. They loose an opportunity to show themselves as "different", "unique" and forward thinking -- vs -- only being able to copy someone elses designed and do it cheaper. Plus, the reality is that a very small percentage of "clones" really clones anyway. How many 47 clones are using a VF14??? How many 73's are using Marinair's? If they're not, then they are not a "clone" and are just piggybacking off the legend. PPS - I respect those manufacturers who say "inspired by" and play up the differences, while tipping their hat in a general direction of the original.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 10, 2017 15:27:38 GMT -6
Ha, I made and used the Max's mk-u47 with the Thiersh blue cap, which as far as clones go other than the tube electronics are very faithful. I think the small manufacturers actually know exactly what they are doing, smaller runs, so they control their overhead and people know there are not unlimited numbers of products which creates demand ?
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Post by jakeharris on Nov 10, 2017 16:02:25 GMT -6
These conversations only come up when lowend companies do clones...
If people really want the cloning to stop, then they need to stop with the 'sounds just like a U47, M49, C12, 1176 and Pultec/API/Neve, but on steroids!!!' bullshit:
If vintage gear is the only reference people use, don't expect manufacturers to be any different.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 11, 2017 12:44:15 GMT -6
Let's remember why and how the Clone age began, Every highend room had to have the classics, 1176, LA2 U47, couple of Neve and API Modules, except by 1980 none of these were being built anymore. The guys who kept them working were all being asked if they could build new ones and many did. The prices were Boutique level because most of these were small shops. Everybody has always lusted for affordable versions of the classics, so as the home studio market grew and overseas manufacturing became available the race for the bottom began. Until Music group/ Behringer joined the club the Big boys avoided Reissues of their classics ( exceptions AKG, Tube, C12VR D12vr & c451b all received mixed reviews or poor. Neumann u67 & 47fet both received very positive reviews). No one would bring a clone to market at any price if the demand didn't exist, & we are the demand so if we don't want them they won't build them. I'll admit a clone is an easier sell than a new design, the " you won't get closer to the magic of ------ for the money " is the easiest sell. The problem is no piece of gear no matter the price or the lore brings the magic without the skills & as a gearpimp the words " you suck " will not put money in your wallet so you need.... to get to the next level are far better for clients egos and your cash flow!
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Post by bowie on Nov 11, 2017 12:56:11 GMT -6
Yes and no. I think it's generally more successful with outboard. With mics, they rarely sound just like the originals and I'd love more mic makers to embrace their own signature sounds. Of course, that doesn't sell mics so they need to pander to the crowd that has decided the # "47" is synonymous with quality.
I'm big into DIY because you can tune it to your own sonic expectations are you're not limited to parts that must be sourced in bulk. Pardon my heresy but I think DIY can sometimes be superior to the originals as you can use a blend of the best vintage and modern parts. It's not easy to learn what those are though, and get ahold of all of them. Requires lots of time and money for experimenting.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 11, 2017 13:13:12 GMT -6
Yes and no. I think it's generally more successful with outboard. With mics, they rarely sound just like the originals and I'd love more mic makers to embrace their own signature sounds. Of course, that doesn't sell mics so they need to pander to the crowd that has decided the # "47" is synonymous with quality. I'm big into DIY because you can tune it to your own sonic expectations are you're not limited to parts that must be sourced in bulk. Pardon my heresy but I think DIY can sometimes be superior to the originals as you can use a blend of the best vintage and modern parts. It's not easy to learn what those are though, and get ahold of all of them. Requires lots of time and money for experimenting. I agree I think it's easy to recreate a circuit for the most part with modern parts, but transducers are much harder to capture the magic without the same materials.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 11, 2017 15:44:12 GMT -6
Clones allow the less than rich participants to get in to older designs. But for some of us it's a "been there, done that" re-run.
I would love to see more new designs and some envelope pushing for a change.
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Post by pope on Nov 11, 2017 15:45:48 GMT -6
Clones allow the less than rich participants to get in to older designs. That's about 95% of the current "industry"
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Post by M57 on Nov 11, 2017 16:20:08 GMT -6
>>They lose an opportunity to show themselves as "different", "unique" and forward thinking -- vs -- only being able to copy someone elses designed and do it cheaper<< >>I respect those manufacturers who say "inspired by" and play up the differences, while tipping their hat in a general direction of the original<< I agree, but while a company may be muddying up their own waters in terms of establishing themselves as forward thinking, associating their products with a well-known "standard" (whether as a clone or as a hybrid) instantly lets their customer base know "generally speaking" what it is in one broad stroke. More and more the demographic for buyers of increasingly affordable gear are not engineers; they're musicians. Musicians who fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view find themselves in a position where they can afford to record themselves with some pretty high quality gear ..yet don't have the time or expertise to become knowledgeable about the differences between Carnhill and CineMag, or research where a capsule is sourced, etc. They think they want something 47ish, so three of the first five they research will have the number 47 in their name.
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Post by Vincent R. on Nov 13, 2017 13:25:56 GMT -6
I am of two minds about this subject. I have owned numerous clones by Peluso & Advanced Audio, I've Modded cheaper mics like my Studio Projects C3 into a U87 clone, I own a fairly high end replica in the form of the MK U67 kit that installs into my U87ai, and I am about to pick up a high end M49 replica.
When I decided to beef up my home studio to a pro level vocal studio I picked up a U87ai. People genuinely expected me to have at least that in my arsenal. I never really was in love with it on my voice. It never sounded bad and beat my KSM44 hands down, but there was something missing. As you start researching these things online you always come across the big "holy grail" mics. U47, C12, ELA M251, M49, U67, M269, U87, Sony C800G. So you start looking at the mics used by some of the artists in your genre and who have some of your favorite recordings. I found Andrea Bocelli on a U47, Sergio Franchi on a U67, and Josh Groban on an M49, just to name a few. So you read about "affordable" options, because you know tracking down a vintage mic for over 10k just isn't an option right now, let alone maintaining one. From there you find ways to try these microphones and if possible to try the "affordable" options. Being able to purchase these budget friendly clones, work with them for a few months or even a year or two, and really get to know them was such an important part of discovering my sound and my aesthetic. Now that I know what I like I am able to move onto more accurate sounding replicas of the microphones I reach for all the time.
The problem is the exaggerated claims many of these companies, or the reviewers of these clones make. I have not yet found a 1-2k microphone that sounds exactly like it's vintage counter part. They often lack something in the lows and the low mids, but can often have a similar, though sometimes brighter top end. Some use very similar electronic designs to the originals and some use completely different components while attempting for the same sonic quality. These cheaper mics sound great. They often beat out other microphones in their price range, but they just don't have the exact same quality as the originals.
As you near the 4K and above mark that's where things get really interesting; FLEAs, Wunders, Telefunkens, and a slew of other independent companies making clones. These mics are straight out replicas whose modifications are out of necessity to replace parts that can no longer be sourced (i.e. VF14 or AC701k, etc). The tricky part with these is that each company has a specific microphone(s) they based their "ideal sound" on, which is why Flea's 47 won't sound exactly like Wunder's CM7, or Telefunken's U47 reissue, etc. At this level it can be trickier to find the vintage mic in a clip, especially after processing. My issue with these mics is that sometimes they approach pricing that is similar to the cost of the vintage mics themselves. I don't know that I would spend 10k on a replica. At that point I'd feel better about picking up an original and having it serviced properly by a professional technician.
Then you have companies like Bock Audio or the now defunct Kory audio that take classic designs and do their own thing with them, bringing a professional quality microphone out that can sit and play with the big vintage mics, but while having their own twist on the classic designs and sonic characters. I think that is really creative. I also love that established companies with great reputations are entering the microphone battles with their own original designs, like Chandler REDD's all new design with a sound that seems to be an amalgam of sorts of other favorite classic mics. In a few years when more studios own them and more "stars" make albums with them I think you're going to see the REDD come up more and more as an equal and alternative to a lot of these microphones.
I do hope other microphone designers do the same as Chandler and present new designs and new sonic colors. However, I don't think it will ever stop the desire for some of us to paint our songs with the sonic colors of the artists who made us want to be artists. For those beginning their journey Advanced Audio, Warm Audio, Peluso and more will help them find their sound and create their own art. I think that's a good thing.
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Post by drbill on Nov 13, 2017 13:39:23 GMT -6
However, I don't think it will ever stop the desire for some of us to paint our songs with the sonic colors of the artists who made us want to be artists. Funny thing is....a lot of times, those iconic classics are what they are just because that mic on that day just happened to be up on the stand, or it was what the studio had available, or it's the one that wasn't broke and at the tech's. Soooo many times, there was not nearly the thought put into it as those who are chasing the clone miracle "to get so and so's sound" in their private studio on their own voice. (which of course will never sound like what they seek to emulate anyway) My experience is/was that given any particular situation and mic, a great artist and the engineer pushing the faders adjusts to the mic, the voice and the room and they just get on to making music. You could put up a 44, a 67 an 87, or a 47 and it turned out awesome if the performance is there. IMO, so much overthought goes into "the perfect" mic today by guys who have not had the chance to work with lots of artists and lots of mics. My experience is that if the artist is great, they are going to adapt and make virtually any decent mic you throw up sound great. Drop that into a mix with great musicians, talented engineering, creative musical mix engineer, and if the song is great..... bam. Done. Use what ya got. That said, I'd love a pair of vintage M49C's - IF - and only if, they have the magic dust in them. Not really interested in "clones" at this point, because they aren't clones for a variety of reasons.
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Post by pope on Nov 14, 2017 3:28:04 GMT -6
That's a comment from the warm fb page and it describes in a nutshell what people think when they buy cheap clones...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 6:40:56 GMT -6
I'm guessing most of the people making comments like your quote haven't compared it with an original?
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Post by pope on Nov 14, 2017 6:43:03 GMT -6
But hey, it's called 47!
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